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SANDMAN-2531700

Articles Posted: 9  Links Seeded: 5
Member Since: 10/2010  Last Seen: 5/17/2012

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Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence

Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:00 AM EST
religion, not-news
By SANDMAN-2531700
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Finally, the moment of irrefutable truth has arrived. The moment everyone has been waiting for. Well the wait is over. This is where I state my case for God's existence which I believe to be incontrovertible. So it begs the question, what evidence could I possibly produce that will placate the minds of unbelievers and cause them to abandon their skepticism once and for all. Well??? Can I get a drum roll please......?

EXHIBIT A

Before I answer that question allow me to prolong the suspense by discussing our friend in the picture whom we will refer to as exhibit A. You're probably wondering who the heck is that hooligan and what relevance does he have to this whole discussion? All the relevance in the world as we shall soon find out. So, who is this stranger? He could be the thug on the street that causes you to tense up as he approaches you from behind, one more of the nameless statistics that makes up the whole of our prison population, or just one more casualty of gang warfare on the streets of Los Angeles. The subject grew up in a crime-infested neighborhood racked by drugs and violence. At the age of twelve he witnessed his older brother gunned down in front of his apartment complex, the memory of which would haunt him for years to come, filling his life with anger and rage. He started gang banging at the age of fifteen and from that point on his life spun out of control as he became totally submerged in the gang lifestyle. He has been arrested twice for assault and battery on a police officer, once on a conspiracy to commit murder, and numerous counts of robbery. He even gained the infamy of making it on the local newspaper for his arrest in connection with a string of armed robberies around the South Bay. He has been shot twice, (once by a sheriff deputy), stabbed, and involved in countless brawls. He was addicted to crack cocaine and crystal meth which would often set him off on a crime spree in order to fuel his high. But one day in the midst of all that chaos he met a man who shared with him his own personal testimony of how God had touched his life and how that same God could change his life as well. For the first time in his existence he came to the realization that he didn't have to be just one more nameless statistic, his destiny could change, he could have a "future and a hope". And if you haven't figured it out by now the subject in the photo is yours truly; The Sandman.

I always find it amusing when I consider the type of people on the other side of my computer screen. I have probably debated Rhode scholars, and conversely, they have debated a fool and didn't even know it. But then again, who's the bigger fool, me, or the genius arguing with a fool such as myself? At any rate, it all makes for great comedy. C'mon, admitted! This was the last face you expected to see behind such literary masterpieces as the ones that I've previously posted on Newsvine. I know that I'm tooting my own horn here but the point still remains. My articles have been accused of being "erudite" and showing an "exemplary" display of the English language. Not bad for a guy who dropped out in the tenth grade and learned English as his second language. The fact that I can string a few sentences together let alone make a coherent argument on any given subject is quite remarkable when you consider that you're talking about a guy who fried his brain on PCP to the point that I would often get lost in the midst of a conversation. Now, what were we discussing again? Oh yeah, my irrefutable evidence for God's existence. This brings us to the relevance of our subject to the matter at hand. My criterion for irrefutable evidence is based on what I consider to be both objective and subjective truth. Objective because it must be evident to the unbiased observer. Subjective because it must be true to the subject individual of whom the observation has been made. 

OBJECTIVE TRUTH

The objective truth is that to the outside observer it is clearly evident that something profoundly transformational has transpired in the life of our subject. Who he was, he no longer is. Lest it be assumed that this was merely some gradual change as someone who simply passed on from one phase to the next it must be noted that this transformation occurred rather abruptly and almost instantaneous. If we could view his life on a time line we would observe a consistent pattern of chaos and destruction through the first half of his life, then suddenly there is a paradigm shift that takes place in our chart. It's as sharp a contrast as there is between darkness and light, night and day. The difference is undeniable. There is no phasing out. In fact, gangsters are not allowed to phase out, not at the prime of their life when their gangsterism is at its peak performance. Now the question remains, what took place to bring about such a radical transformation. Let us go back to our time line and zoom in on that pivotal moment of transition. There in the midst of the chaos that was his life he is confronted with the reality of God's existence. He hears the message that there is a God in heaven who not only created the known universe but is actively involved in His creation. Still, the message alone does not account for his transformation, this not being the first time that he has heard such a message. It was not so much what the messenger said as it was what he himself said in response. It was his acknowledgement of his own complicity in sin and the confession of Christ as his own Lord and Savior that brought about this transformation; a transformation so powerful that Jesus Himself describes it as being "born again." (John 3:3) The truth being conveyed here is of such a magnitude that it is as if one were able to enter their mother's womb and then crawl back out as a completely new creation. This "new creation" is the evidence that demonstrates the reality of the Creator's presence in the life of the believer. (2Corinthians 5:17)

I know there is someone who is yelling at their computer screen at this very moment, demanding to be shown the "empirical" data to support the evidence. Perhaps with all of our advancement in Neuroimaging we can observe a transformation in brain function at the moment of conversion and gather the empirical evidence that demonstrates the spiritual metamorphosis that takes place when one becomes born again. I've read somewhere about the different areas of the brain accessed by liberals and conservatives. Speaking for myself, I know that my world view has become much more conservative since my conversion. Although I consider much of the inferences made from these observations to be a bunch of crack-pot science, still it makes for some interesting discussion. Or maybe one day we may just be able to find the God gene (not to be confused with the elusive gay gene). I read an article recently that speaks of how the impulsivity that makes one prone to addictive behavior is linked to a certain gene called NRXN3. If this is so, than that particular gene must have been severely incapacitated at the moment I gave my life to Jesus Christ seeing how I lost all desire to consume drugs soon there after. Yet regardless of how conclusive the empirical evidence may be, it will always be subject to interpretation which is influenced by the observer's personal bias. Say what you will but bias is almost impossible to get away from. That is why what some of us view as a design wrought by the hand of an all-powerful Designer, others view as the product of an all-powerful process known as natural selection. But what if the object of observation could speak for itself and tell us why it is what it is? What if the rocks could cry out? Well, in this case the object does have something pertinent to add to this whole conversation.

SUBJECTIVE TRUTH

At this point our angry reader has gone from screaming at his monitor to punching a hole right through it. While you regain your composure  indulge me with your attention a bit longer and allow me to bring some perspicuity to our discussion. I realize that there will always be the naysayers who will put forth their own theories as to why the subject individual has undergone such a drastic change; however to the subject there is only one valid explanation, that is, "God has touched my life". This is his subjective truth. And since subjectivity is in the mind of the beholder, who better to reveal what that mind conceives than the one doing the beholding which in this case happens to be non other than myself. In that mind I behold certain truths about myself that are to me indubitable. I know that I am no longer the same corrupted individual I once was. I've changed, I mean really changed. It's not simply the relinquishing of the more unsavory aspects of my life but a complete transformation in my thinking process. I've come under new convictions that were once completely foreign to me. Suddenly things like honesty and integrity matter to me. Now remember, we're talking about someone who had absolutely no regard for other people's personal property. I took what I wanted; no questions asked. I also know just how corrupted I still can be and yet there is some thing (or better yet Someone), beyond myself that keeps me from naturally gravitating towards that corruption.

For me the reality of God's existence is not based on some primitive account of a bygone experience in the distant past but is a reality that is just as relevant in the present. Please understand that when we debate the subject of God's existence, you're not just challenging some intellectual argument, you're arguing against my very life experience. How does one counter all the manifestations of God's power that have embedded themselves into the depths of my memory? I've seen and have been the recipient of Divine intervention in my own life. I'm not talking about some ambiguous happenings that are open to interpretation. I am talking about specific and to the point answers to prayer. Oh... the things I've seen. I've seen cancer healed; men who were given a life expectancy outlive the date of their termination. I've seen the criminally insane clothed and in their right mind, prostitutes become advocates of virtue, and men in the pit of despair on the verge of suicide embrace hope again. I've seen a blind man impart vision, an illiterate dispense wisdom, and an invalid cause many to walk upright. I've seen the hardest of criminals break down and bow their knee in repentance. Oh... the things I've seen. This may all sound like a bunch of poetic gibberish to some but for me every one of these descriptions has a direct association to my life experience. Still, I know there will be those who will attempt to delegitimize these experiences and restrict them within the confines of subjectivity. It was C.S. Lewis who made the case for the legitimacy of Christ's divinity by stating that Jesus was either a lunatic, a lying devil, or who He said He was. That same line of reasoning could be applied to the believer who claims to have had a born again experience. He is either a lunatic who has imagined a fictitious transformation in his life, a liar who has feigned such an experience, or he really has had a personal encounter with the Living God. As it is logically impossible to will oneself into a place of insanity we can scratch that option. As for the accusation of pretense, one can only maintain a lie for so long (16 years in my case is a long time). That leaves us with the only viable option which is a genuine experience. The question is how this experience transcends beyond that which is merely subjective on to that which is concrete and irrefutable.

IRREFUTABLE TRUTH

The answer to the issue of a truth that transcends subjectivity, in my estimation, rests on the potentiality that the experience could be shared beyond the mind of the subject individual. This experience has to be embraced by the observer as his irrefutable truth. Like the apostle Peter, the observer himself must become an "eyewitness of His majesty" (2Peter 1:16) What I mean is that it can't be the subject's experience alone. If this is only an isolated incident then we can readily write the man off as delusional. The truth is that this experience is not confined to a single individual but is shared by a great number of people. Now lest it be assumed that this is a case of mass insanity let us keep in mind that most of those who have been committed to an insane asylum do not suffer the same exact delusion. In other words, there are not a thousand people running around claiming to be Napoleon Bonaparte. Each one is delusional in their own particular way. The experience of the believer on the other hand is shared by millions of people around the world. This is why I can relate to someone who is in a completely different continent, from a completely different culture. We may come from different walks of life and yet we both share one thing in common, that is, both have been touched by the same power of God. This born again experience is something that has been and continues to be a transforming force in the lives of those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Lord. Even to this very minute there is somebody somewhere in the world to whom this truth is becoming irrefutable. Further more, there are some reading this article at the present moment who have opposed my whole premise of God's existence up to this point who will one day themselves embrace this truth as irrefutable. Before you say never allow me to share a little story. I knew a man once who became so irate with us that he swore he would never step foot inside our church. A year later guess who not only came to church but was actively involved in the ministry as well? Yeah you guessed it. So what happened, did he lose his mind? On the contrary, he found it. And more than that, he found the irrefutable truth of God's existence. This is why some one like the apostle Paul could go from trying to eradicate the church to becoming one of its greatest proponents, writing two thirds of the New Testament and in the end paying the ultimate price to make that truth known to the entire world. When ever I share the message of God's love and redemption I am more than confident that the hearer too could have the same experience that I've had. My truth can become their truth because it is beyond subjective, it's irrefutable.

Hanging out with my son as he graduated to U.S. Airman at Lackland Airforce Base San Antonio, Texas

In conclusion I would like to challenge you, the observer, to look more closely into the truth claims of God's existence and see whether these things are so. There was a Samaritan woman, an outcast with a troubled past who one day had an encounter with Jesus Christ. She was so impacted by that encounter that she spread the news through out the city, telling everyone about the Man who had touched her life. Like many of our readers here on the Vine there were plenty of skeptics back then who questioned the veracity of her story. However, after meeting the Man for themselves they embraced the reality of God's existence as irrefutable. (John 4:42) Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.” This story is a microcosm of a much bigger picture. That is that all who have ever come into contact with The Lord Jesus Christ have been fundamentally transformed. The consequence of this transformation is the bearing of fruit which is the stamp of authenticity in the life of the believer. In my own life this fruit has bore itself out in the lives of those who have been impacted through my testimony. As for the fruit of my own loins, I have two beautiful children, one of which is pursuing a career in law enforcement. How's that for ending the cycle of gang violence. It's the correlation of all these events in my life that have become the undisputed facts which have led me to the conclusion of God's existence as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the irrefutable truth.

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Andrew-1162039

Your "evidence" is the typical Christian testimony - which amounts to a very unconvincing proof of anything. It is pretty typical of the argument for Christianity, which relies on various logical fallacies and then demands it has proven something it simply hasn't.

Each one is delusional in their own particular way. The experience of the believer on the other hand is shared by millions of people around the world.

Not true at all. Group delusion is a well documented phenomenon. The fact that we have tens of thousands of religions which vary greatly, and that not so long ago just as many people were praying to entirely different gods is rather clear and incontrovertible evidence that this type of delusion is common, and the mutually exclusive nature of these religions demonstrates this cannot be evidence of the authenticity of any one religion.

Humans are a tribal social species. It's how we've evolved and it's a part of who we are. The transition from one tribal/social group, a gang, to another tribal/social group, a religious organization, with a strong sense of connection to each group and a desire to follow the social patterns and rules of the group is not that surprising.

  • 25 votes
#1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:55 AM EST
Truth Sleuth

The only thing you have proved, Sandman, is that you changed your thinking and used your new thinking to change your life. Well done. But there is no scientific evidence or proof from you in this article that a "divine creator" exists. You've simply chosen to chalk your change up to this alleged creator's existence and its influence over you. That doesn't constitute evidence or proof.

  • 18 votes
#1.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:07 AM EST
Truth Sleuth

It's the correlation of all these events in my life that have become the undisputed facts which have led me to the conclusion of God's existence as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the irrefutable truth.

A timeless principle of logic: Correlation does not prove causation.

  • 15 votes
#1.2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 AM EST
Vis Major

Delusion is the wrong word. I agree with Sam Harris that we need to recognize the very real experiences (albeit mischaracterised) of religious people just as they must acknowledge that people of faiths other than their own have these same experiences. We err if we leave religion as the only game in town when we don't discuss the experiences.

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:14 AM EST
SANDMAN-2531700

Andrew

The fact that we have tens of thousands of religions which vary greatly, and that not so long ago just as many people were praying to entirely different gods is rather clear and incontrovertible evidence that this type of delusion is common

Actually the type of delusion that I referred to applies to the real clinical definition of insanity. The accusation that the vast majority of religious people suffer from some sort of mental illness only brings your own sanity into question. The fact that we have such a diverse religious landscape only proves that man is religious by nature. From an evolutionary stand point, (which I don't hold to), man's earliest cognitive faculty was given over to the contemplation of God's existence. Therefore, if your premise is true, then man has evolved in his insanity. Perhaps the discarding of religion altogether is the height of his insanity.

The transition from one tribal/social group, a gang, to another tribal/social group, a religious organization, with a strong sense of connection to each group and a desire to follow the social patterns and rules of the group is not that surprising.

That's funny, I was not aware that I switched tribes. The problem I find with this kind of sociologist nonsense is that it has no relavent application to any real life experience. It does not account for the abruptness of my transformation nor does it explain how I overcame my addictions without the need of any type of program. It's easy for someone like youself to sit there and parrot a bunch of textbook phraseology but the reality on the ground is much more complicated. For instance, exiting the "gang tribe" is not as simplistic as you make it seem. The reason is because there is such a thing as a gang mentality that is extremely difficult to break free from. This is why so many gang members get caught up in the revolving door of our prison system. It's a complete miracle of God that I have extracated myself from that lifestyle.

  • 6 votes
#1.4 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:56 PM EST
Truth Sleuth

It does not account for the abruptness of my transformation nor does it explain how I overcame my addictions without the need of any type of program.

Right. Neither does religion or God explain it either. You've chosen to assign that explanation to it. You haven't proved anything other than you made a choice to accept a premise on blind faith and that you can rationalize it and justify it with examples of things that have nothing whatsoever to do with science, evidence or proof. And that's OK. Faith doesn't require proof; it accepts things unquestioningly and by choice. That's not the stuff, though, of science, evidence or proof. Sorry.

  • 13 votes
#1.5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:01 PM EST
TruettCollins

SANDMAN-2531700 - good attempt at opening the eyes of the self blinded, but as you can see here that prophecy is coming true.

  • 4 votes
#1.6 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:41 PM EST
Runner99

Right. Neither does religion or God explain it either. You've chosen to assign that explanation to it. You haven't proved anything other than you made a choice to accept a premise on blind faith and that you can rationalize it and justify it with examples of things that have nothing whatsoever to do with science, evidence or proof. And that's OK. Faith doesn't require proof; it accepts things unquestioningly and by choice. That's not the stuff, though, of science, evidence or proof.

Where does blind faith come from? Does it come from hope, love, understanding? Does faith come from a need to be healed? Does faith come from carnal need? Or does faith come from the Almighty in which none of the above is needed yet provided for with no repayment? I don't choose to preach, just to live and let my life be the example for my higher power, the God of Abraham. I don't wish to push my belief on anyone. I don't wish to convert. I don't wish that you believe what I believe. I wish that you find peace.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:37 AM EST
vol fan in chatt, tn

Excellent testimony Sandman...reminds me of the song "Amazing Grace"...was blind but now I see...There is nothing more convincing to the existence of God than a changed life. As you said:

It's a complete miracle of God that I have extracated myself from that lifestyle.

Yes it is...I am happy for you, my fellow believer. God bless and thanks for sharing...( p.s.ignore the naysayers...)

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:48 AM EST
Runner99

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, I once was lost but now I'm found.

I love that song.

God bless.

  • 8 votes
#1.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:53 AM EST
TiG.

Sandman

I am happy that your life has changed for the better.

What you have presented is a great human interest story but calling this 'Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence' will likely accomplish the opposite of what you intend. My guess is that you seek to convince atheists that God exists. No need to convince theists, right?

Assuming that is your intent, what you have done is conflate faith with evidence. Irrefutable evidence of the existence of God would have to be evidence which can only be explained by the existence of God. Your transformation has many plausible explanations. Why is your transformation irrefutable evidence of God when billions of people have had similar personal changes? Your transformation does not seem to be a 'miracle'.

Now if you intended to simply assert that YOUR transformation is irrefutable evidence of God's existence FOR YOU that is a different story entirely. That would be a personal belief and nobody has the right to deny your personal belief. In other words, God's existence if irrefutably proven to YOU.

But if you truly seek to assert that you are the very first human being to deliver objective (not personal) proof of God's existence - irrefutable, no less - then I suggest you have fallen quite short. Such unsubstantiated claims make theists look silly to atheists thus I think you are hurting your objective and are handing ammunition to aggressive, adversarial atheists.

IMHO

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:29 AM EST
Runner99

First of all I don"t think Sandman is the first to deliver the message of God. Secondly his transformation is remarkably his own, and finally if he wants to give credit to a helping hand, his God, who are you to shun it?

  • 6 votes
#1.11 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:36 AM EST
TiG.

Runner

If you read my post (objectively), I in no way 'shun' Sandman's personal assessment. He can give credit as he sees fit.

And I did not say he was the first to deliver the message of God. What I actually said is in my post.

The question is objective irrefutable evidence of the existence of God. That is basically proof. If Sandman could deliver that he would indeed be the very first human to do so (to my knowledge).

  • 9 votes
#1.12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:43 AM EST
Runner99

How would one deliver the existence of God? You either believe, or you do not believe.

  • 6 votes
#1.13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:47 AM EST
TiG.

Runner

You either believe, or you do not believe

I agree with you. Now read my prior post objectively. My message to Sandman is that I think he is doing the exact opposite of persuading atheists to his way of thinking.

  • 6 votes
#1.14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:50 AM EST
Arkansas Gloria

Very good, Sandman! Most non-believers won't accept any testimony- but that does not change the fact that God not only is working in your life, but did- to bring you from where you WERE TO WHO YOU are.

Often, when discussing the idea of God with non-believers, I propose this idea- test to them, and if God isn't real, there is no reason for any non-believer to hesitate in this: Say to yourself, or out loud: "God, IF you exist, would you show me so clearly and plainly that this fool has no way to rationalize it away? If God is real, then God is the only one that I would trust to answer that question for me...not a preacher, not a church, not a book, not someone's interpretation... only God will do; anything else might not be the truth. So, please, IF you exist, and are alive and well in this world today- please show me so clearly that I know you and you alone have shown me."

I wasn't even concerned if God was a 'has been', I just wanted to know.

Then, see if you are in any way convinced that God is there or not.

Give it a month, or a week, or even maybe- a day or two. Just pose the question seriously, or not at all.

  • 9 votes
#1.15 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:45 AM EST
Dale95

Congrats Sandman. I don’t like getting involved in religious debates because it’s such a personal thing…, but here I am anyways. LOL. If religious beliefs would just stay personal things…, that would be a good thing. IMHO But…, mankind always goes corrupt whenever and wherever the ‘power-to-control’ presents itself. And religion IS such a compelling temptation tool… and it’s been used, misused, and abused by many, many countless deceivers and pathetic hypocrites over the ages. So beware Sandman…, and be very, very cautious, for the closer you get to God’s power, the more enticing and devious the deceptions of temptation become (as in Satan).

The power of ‘Thoughts And Perceptions’ (TAPS), is THE most powerful force on earth. And that power-source will never be a tangible-commodity for dissection and lab-testing with analytical explanations and understandings…, with either microscopes or telescopes. The answers that mankind seeks for proof, will be found at the bottom of all those black-holes out there in space…, and good luck with that.

The nomadic Indians, of just a couple hundred years ago, also believed in Great Spirits…, Gods, many of them. They even had their own prophets and messiahs, that also met similar fates as your Jesus. If you had been born back then, and over there…, you would have been a great warrior/hunter… from the get-go. You would have had your vision at a young age, and never doubted anything in your life.

It’s our distorted culture that is to blame for your (and others) wayward journey..., and all of our troubles with poverty, drugs, violence, starvation, and all of the idle deprivation that leads to criminality. It’s a corrupt and @!$%#ty world indeed, that which modern-man has turned God’s beautiful creation into… and it’s getting worse every day. We must have positive purpose in life to focus our passion on…, and to develop our identity. Otherwise we become corrupt in pleasure seeking, control-techniques, and over indulgences---Narcissistic Fibrosis.

Good luck out there, and may the ‘GREAT SPIRIT’ be with you.

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:32 AM EST
Andrew-1162039

The accusation that the vast majority of religious people suffer from some sort of mental illness only brings your own sanity into question.

Most religious beliefs are mutually exclusive. Either one billion Hindus are incorrect, one billion Christians are incorrect, or both groups suffer from the same type of errant religious belief structure which is obviously largely culturally instilled. When people from both these religions claim they are actively talking to their deities we know at least half of them are delusional.

The fact that we have such a diverse religious landscape only proves that man is religious by nature.

It also proves that at a bare minimum half of all humans are apt to believe complete nonsense when it comes to religion, which should give every religious person pause to sit and consider what differentiates their religion from every other one in human history.

  • 2 votes
#1.17 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:06 AM EST
UNA_Lion

When people from both these religions claim they are actively talking to their deities we know at least half of them are delusional.

Not necessarily. Most Christians believe that Satan and his servants (other fallen angels) are very active and can interact with (and in some cases even possess) those outside of Christ. So the spiritural experiences of those adhering to religions apart from Christ may be quite real.

  • 3 votes
#1.18 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:15 AM EST
Andrew-1162039

Considering the majority of the world is non-Christian, for the adherents of all these other religions to be talking to Satan would indicate Satan has a bigger microphone than the Christian God. We also have the thousands of Christian sects, and when members of each talk to God he reaffirms their interpretation of the religion, indicating that indeed, at the bare minimum 50% of all Christians are being deceived by Satan as well. So either God is a rube who is being circumvented by Satan in 75-99% of the cases, or the far simpler answer, people who claim to directly talk with a deity are incorrect and are experiencing a sociological effect common to religious individuals of virtually every religious grouping.

  • 6 votes
#1.19 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:47 AM EST
UNA_Lion

Considering the majority of the world is non-Christian, for the adherents of all these other religions to be talking to Satan would indicate Satan has a bigger microphone than the Christian God.

According to the Bible, Satan has authority over the whole world:

2 Corinthians 4

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Thus our belief that all men (and women) serve one of two masters, knowingly or not.

We also have the thousands of Christian sects, and when members of each talk to God he reaffirms their interpretation of the religion, indicating that indeed, at the bare minimum 50% of all Christians are being deceived by Satan as well.

We in Christ refer to those as denominations, and the basics of Christianity remain, which all Christian denominations believe:

John 3

16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.

You will be hard-pressed to find a Christian denomination that does not adhere to the above passage. Denominations do differ on other aspects of service to Christ, including forms of and time-periods of baptism, whether or not drinking alcohol is acceptable, and interpretations of other scripture. But nearly all believe we are saved only through faith and the grace of Christ Jesus.

So either God is a rube who is being circumvented by Satan in 75-99% of the cases, or the far simpler answer, people who claim to directly talk with a deity are incorrect and are experiencing a sociological effect common to religious individuals of virtually every religious grouping.

You're certainly welcome to your beliefs, and Jesus himelf said most would reject him:

Matthew 7

13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

  • 4 votes
#1.20 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:02 AM EST
ArieusExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence

You were brainwashed into believing in all that godly and religious bs. That's why.

You have no evidence or proof of any god, you just think so in that pea-brain head of yours.

  • 6 votes
#1.21 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:44 PM EST
TiG.

Arieus

There is no need to insult to make your point. The idea that faith is a belief that is not based upon proof and arguably not based upon evidence is well known. Sandman definitely has opened himself up for logical challenge by claiming, in effect, that he has proof of God's existence. You, if you sought to make a thoughtful argument, had plenty of opportunity to make a solid, logical, factual argument.

Ridicule and insults does not lead to a productive end.

  • 3 votes
#1.22 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:58 PM EST
WatcherInTheShadows

But it "sounds" better to "ears" of the same camp........ Which is really all it's about in the end. On both sides of the spectrum.

  • 1 vote
#1.23 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:23 AM EST
TiG.

Wraith

Spot on. As usual, the extreme positions widen the divide and inhibit the more objective positions from finding common ground.

  • 2 votes
#1.24 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:47 AM EST
katrix

TiG- agreed. We all have our beliefs, or lack thereof, and there is no reason why I should consider anyone who doesn't agree with me to be a pea brain. Arguing with people who discount science is one thing; calling them pea brains is another. Calling them ignorant is OK, in the right context, if they willfully ignore science. Ignorance can be fixed by knowledge.

  • 2 votes
#1.25 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:31 AM EST
KElane

I don't discount science...and I've read several others who have beliefs in a higher being who also believe in science.

I don't believe in evolution. Period. One commentor asked me to check out what the word 'fact' means to an evolutionist. Interesting deduction, really. An evolutionist doesn't believe 'fact' is 100%-->so why should I?

  • 1 vote
#1.26 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:52 AM EST
tyler

You were brainwashed into believing in all that godly and religious bs. That's why.

You have no evidence or proof of any god, you just think so in that pea-brain head of yours.

Arieus, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.

Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

  • 4 votes
#1.27 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:46 PM EST
Perception Dominates Reality

2 things I think will help this discussion.

1. "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. " Stuart Chase.
2. Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible, to reduce biased interpretations of results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, giving them the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.

  • 2 votes
#1.28 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:31 PM EST
JM California

Sandman, sorry, but you've not presented irrefutable evidence.

Good for you to get your life on track. You have but one life to achieve this.

Nonetheless, I can't help but wonder how many innocent people you harmed in your drug induced rage. I hope you are mending fences and are working towards reparations for those you hurt.

Finding God is one thing. Imo, correcting your wrongs is the most important.

  • 6 votes
#1.29 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:43 AM EST
Uthaclena

There is obviously a very real experience that can be referred to as a "transformative experience;" many people thruout history have reported it. It is usually accompanied by a significant emotional experience. It can be life-changing. The reality of this can be both experienced, and observed. Quite possibly if we had before and after scans of your brain, hormone levels, measurements of other neurological activity, we would see a genuine difference in comparing them.

However, to claim that it is "irrefutable evidence of God's Existence" tells us how you perceive the experience, as a Personification of it... but it does not in any way prove a deity.

Good on you if this experience has improved your life! Just understand that those of us who find that a Rational rather than Emotional take on life works better does not mean we are missing anything. We have the same experiences, we just define them differently.

  • 6 votes
#1.30 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:48 PM EST
wolfbilly

Acts 9:17
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

St Paul's transformation was miraculous just as was Sandman's. Miracles cannot be scientifically proven. But just as St Paul immediately believed the "irrefutable evidence" and eventually willingly gave his life as testimony to it, so it is with Sandman. Sandman has stated his belief publicly that his transformation is genuine, and that cannot be disproved. I am sure that there are many who will be strengthened by his words. The detractors further reinforce Sandman's affirmations in the eye of those of faith. You can all continue to argue for the sake of argument, but that isn't going to change anything.

    #1.31 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:37 PM EST
    JM California

    wolfbilly

    St Paul's transformation was miraculous just as was Sandman's

    How so?

    Did you read anywhere these words to his victim's, "I'm sorry for all the harm I've caused?" I've not heard mention of restitution, either.

    Nothing divine here until his victims are apologized to and their property is restored.

    Finding God does not absolve you of your debt, whether gained from a bank loan or through crime.

    • 8 votes
    #1.32 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:40 PM EST
    TruettCollins

    Christ paid your debt for you.

      #1.33 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:40 PM EST
      wolfbilly

      What we read -

      "I've seen the hardest of criminals break down and bow their knee in repentance. Oh... the things I've seen. This may all sound like a bunch of poetic gibberish to some but for me every one of these descriptions has a direct association to my life experience."

      "When ever I share the message of God's love and redemption I am more than confident that the hearer too could have the same experience that I've had. My truth can become their truth "

      "The consequence of this transformation is the bearing of fruit which is the stamp of authenticity in the life of the believer. In my own life this fruit has bore itself out in the lives of those who have been impacted through my testimony."

      You assume -

      He has made no restitution. He feels no sorrow.

      It's a natural human impulse to judge and criticize others, to note how they don't measure up to our standards in one way or another. But the Bible is clear about the role of judgment. It should be left to God, who knows our thoughts and deeds. For He alone is worthy.

        #1.34 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:00 PM EST
        thelopes

        Christ paid your debt for you.

        So Christianity doesn't support the idea of personal responsibility. Good to know.

        • 10 votes
        #1.35 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:03 PM EST
        Zen-Hydra

        thelopes

        So Christianity doesn't support the idea of personal responsibility. Good to know.

        ...neither do 12-step programs.

        • 4 votes
        #1.36 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:39 PM EST
        cannonballer

        Zen-Hydra

        thelopes

        So Christianity doesn't support the idea of personal responsibility. Good to know.

        ...neither do 12-step programs

        The whole recovery "thing" requires personal responsibility, that's how it works.

          #1.37 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:03 PM EST
          TruettCollins

          Christianity supports personal responsibility much more than the secular world....it states you are responsible to the world for your actions, then you are also responsible to God for your actions, the price Christ paid was for your responsibility for breaking God's laws not mans. In today's society it seems that you are not eve responsible for your personal actions, instead it is blamed on everything but the individual him/her self.

            #1.38 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:01 PM EST
            JM California

            TruettCollins

            it states you are responsible to the world for your actions, then you are also responsible to God for your actions,...

            What does that mean to you, Truett, in actionable terms?

            Do you believe that God doesn't expect that you right your wrongs and only asks of us that we believe and honor Him? It seems to me that the author is satisfied with preaching more than making restitution. Isn't that a problem?

            Please answer this without quoting scripture or I'll have to ignore your comment.

            • 5 votes
            #1.39 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:39 PM EST
            TruettCollins

            Let's see>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you make restitution to GOD?

              #1.40 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:40 PM EST
              JM California

              Was it God's car, for the sake of an example, that was stolen or vandalized? I'm talking about life on earth and our responsibility for our debts.

              Leave God out for the moment, I know it's difficult, but please try.

              • 5 votes
              #1.41 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:45 PM EST
              TruettCollins

              That would be your responsibility on the secular side....but then according to our secular society of today.....it was not your fault that the car was stolen/vandalized, it was because a teacher some time gave you a bad grade, your parents at some time busted your butt....so why would you be responsible to try to right anything?

                #1.42 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:56 PM EST
                JM California

                Can't answer the question.

                Oh well.

                • 2 votes
                #1.43 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:04 PM EST
                TruettCollins

                I did....but then you would have to actually be able to understand reality to see that.

                  #1.44 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:00 AM EST
                  thelyamhound

                  That would be your responsibility on the secular side....but then according to our secular society of today.....it was not your fault that the car was stolen/vandalized, it was because a teacher some time gave you a bad grade, your parents at some time busted your butt....so why would you be responsible to try to right anything?

                  I think that represents a misunderstanding (on one side) or misuse (on the other) of circumstantialism. Of course it's the fault of the vandal or thief for vandalizing or stealing the car. Recognizing that the life experiences or circumstances of the vandal or thief might have, most likely did, play some role in that doesn't absolve him of the crime, or impede punishment. It simply gives us more data to prevent future theft, and/or to rehabilitate, to whatever degree is possible, the thief at hand, in hopes of reducing recidivism.

                  I might surmise that your real message is that secular law shifts as society's paradigms shift, while the law of deity is more permanent; in a sense, as someone who follows Myoho and the doctrine of Ichinen Sanzen, I am more than amenable to the appeal of an eternal template for value (or at least the appearance of one). But these templates are as influenced by culture as anything else; and without conclusive proof (which is not to say without evidence) of the existence of deity, of the veracity of the texts that claim to speak for him/her/it/them, one can reasonably conclude that they are the works of man, as wrapped up in the specifics of their time and place of origin as any current paradigms are in the the specifics of the here and now. Of course, one could also reasonably conclude the opposite, that these texts ARE the authentic word of [G/g]od(s); one could also conclude that, even if they are fictional and of their time, they have words and lessons of value to contemporary man. This doesn't really illustrate, however, that fealty to metaphysic is a more effective regulator than fealty to rule of law.

                  • 3 votes
                  #1.45 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 2:12 PM EST
                  JM California

                  I think I understand what you are saying thelyamhound.

                  After my life of being a thug, robbing, vandalizing and threatening, I'm going to declare myself a Christian and begin a new life of telling people what to do right (because I'm an expert in doing wrong). That includes never having to say I'm sorry or redressing my wrongs. I know that payback is a bitch so, if I interpret the bible the way I see fit, I won't have any redressing to do, because my fairy tale God already forgave me.

                  I wonder if my mortgage holder will agree after I stop paying my debt.

                  • 5 votes
                  #1.46 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 2:29 PM EST
                  TruettCollins

                  Once again........slowly.....you still owe redress to those you wronged, you sill owe society...the only debt that is paid for by Christ is the one you owe God.

                    #1.47 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:00 PM EST
                    katrix

                    I might surmise that your real message is that secular law shifts as society's paradigms shift, while the law of deity is more permanent;

                    Secular law shifts, and honest people admit that, and think about how things change. Slavery is no longer legal. Women are no longer property and can't legally be abused. Non-white races (not that there was ever a truly "white" race) are fully human and are just as worthy as anyone else. Those born on the wrong side of the blanket, through no fault of their own? It's no longer their fault, and they won't be shunned for their lives for something they had no part in

                    The law of the deity is more permanent. It tells us to kill different tribes, and to rape and enslave their women. It tells us that women are second class. It tells us to kill those who are different from us. Luckily, morality trumps religious law, at least as long as we keep fighting the immorality and keep religion out of our laws. It may be your religion today - it may be a religion you hate tomorrow - and you'll stop pretending, then.

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.48 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:27 AM EST
                    ngp256

                    why would anyone owe anything to a fictional being??

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.49 - Sat Mar 3, 2012 3:13 PM EST
                    WatcherInTheShadows

                    @ngp256:

                    Don't understand the problem of perspective do we?

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.50 - Sat Mar 3, 2012 10:03 PM EST
                    ngp256

                    dont understand reality do we?

                    • 1 vote
                    #1.51 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 5:31 PM EST
                    WatcherInTheShadows

                    @ngp256:

                    *chuckles* Actually I understand your perspective as to what constitutes "reality". I merely lack the massive amount of certainty you apply in order to be able to call it reality.

                    • 2 votes
                    #1.52 - Tue Mar 6, 2012 1:07 AM EST
                    Reply
                    trm2008

                    Believe what ever you wish--there's still no "proof".

                    • 19 votes
                    #2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:35 AM EST
                    AZPADDY

                    trm

                    Believe what ever you wish--there's still no "proof".

                    I believe that's the reason it's referred to as "faith".

                    When W.C. Fields was ill and in the hospital, his long time freind Edgar Bergen paid him a visit. When Bergen saw Fields reading a bible, he asked him why (knowing Fields was not a man of faith). Fields replied: "Looking for loopholes!"

                    • 2 votes
                    #2.1 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:06 AM EST
                    Zen-Hydra

                    Faith is the refuge of the weak-willed and the simple-minded.

                    • 8 votes
                    #2.2 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:40 PM EST
                    AZPADDY

                    Zen-Hydra, #2.2

                    Your comment seems very intolerant of the faithful. Why do you make the claim that people of faith are weak-willed and simple minded? Was it simply a mean-spirited swipe at those of faith?

                    I'll be surprised if you answer.

                      #2.3 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:22 PM EST
                      wolfbilly

                      Galatians 2:16
                      know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

                      • 2 votes
                      #2.4 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:19 PM EST
                      Elaine-1503791

                      Colossians 1:20-22 ESV

                      And through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, hHe has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.

                      • 2 votes
                      #2.5 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:30 PM EST
                      Zen-Hydra

                      AZPADDY

                      Your comment seems very intolerant of the faithful.

                      I abhor ignorance, especially willful ignorance, but do not confuse that with an intolerance of the people themselves. I respect all human beings. Some ideas are not worthy of respect, and all arguments do not carry equal weight.

                      Why do you make the claim that people of faith are weak-willed and simple minded?

                      Faith is the inverse of science. Faith is static and inscrutable, while science is dynamic and self-correcting.

                      Faith is the refuge of the weak-willed and the simple-minded, while science is the collected observations of the boldly inquisitive and the reason-minded.

                      Without their faith, theists would be forced to face the harsh realities of life. Instead of bravely facing the unknown, they lie to themselves and each other about how the universe operates. It is a sad embracing willful ignorance.

                      Was it simply a mean-spirited swipe at those of faith?

                      Nothing could be further from the truth. It would be mean-spirited to stand idly while people promoted their fundamentally-flawed cosmology to another generation.

                      It would be "evil" to not take action against religion's poison meme.

                      Our species has tremendous potential, and I will take every reasonable, non-violent measure to eradicate ignorance.

                      I'll be surprised if you answer.

                      Surprise! Happy Thursday, AZPADDY!

                      • 5 votes
                      #2.6 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:55 PM EST
                      AZPADDY

                      Zen-HYdra, #2.6

                      Surprise! Happy Thursday, AZPADDY!

                      You do know that I included my last sentence in #2.3 to provoke an answer, don't you?

                      Faith is simply a choice, Zen, and you can choose to not have faith, but you really shouid refrain from harsh judgementalism on those who choose to have faith. It only effects you. Negatively.

                      Zen........

                        #2.7 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 7:26 PM EST
                        thelyamhound

                        Faith is simply a choice . . .

                        Not really.

                        That said, as a Nichiren Buddhist, I certainly don't begrudge any individual his or her faith.

                        • 2 votes
                        #2.8 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 8:09 PM EST
                        TiG.

                        AZPADDY

                        Faith is simply a choice . . .

                        I bit my tongue on that one, but given Lyam has walked in your open door I will say that you and I have found another area where we do not see eye-to-eye. Of course any discussion is better suited in Lyam's article than here.

                        • 1 vote
                        #2.9 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 8:52 PM EST
                        AZPADDY

                        TiG

                        another area where we do not see eye-to-eye.

                        I really can't recall whatever topic(s) you and I may have disagreed on, but nice to see you too....?

                        Thelyamhound:

                        That said, as a Nichiren Buddhist

                        ummm....Ohhkaayy......

                          #2.10 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:47 PM EST
                          TiG.

                          AZPADDY

                          Oh ... sorry, hey AZPADDY how have you been? :-)

                          ( Our last non eye-to-eye discussion was, I believe, on general immigration philosophy. )

                            #2.11 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:59 PM EST
                            katrix

                            That said, as a Nichiren Buddhist

                            There aren't many people who actually ask Lyam what that means. People of other faiths, or no faith, read the bible and other holy texts. Is it asking to much to request the same from you? How can you discuss what other people think, if you don't take the time to find out what they think and why? If all you've read is the bible, then how can you so ignorantly discount the other holy or historical books? Read them all. Then form your opinion, and decide how much of it is faith vs facts, and move on.

                            Willful ignorance is probably the one thing that would make a god cry over his creation.

                            • 1 vote
                            #2.12 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:35 AM EST
                            AZPADDY

                            katrix

                            Amazing how so much can be misread and assumed from some comments.

                            • 1 vote
                            #2.13 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 8:39 AM EST
                            thelyamhound

                            >>Thelyamhound:

                            That said, as a Nichiren Buddhist

                            >>ummm....Ohhkaayy......

                            Why bother responding if you're not going to offer a rejoinder, or ask for a clarification?

                            I am, at a level of metaphysical presupposition, a pantheist (as opposed to a theist or an atheist); at a level of religious practice, I am a Buddhist; my sect of Buddhism focuses on the Lotus Sutra (out of hundreds, possibly thousands of Sutras), and focuses on precepts extrapolated therefrom by Chinese philosopher T'ien T'ai and, later, Japanese monk Nichiren Daishonin.

                            I prefaced my statement with a declaration of my faith in order to make it clear that I do, in fact, support the notion of living according to faith. This clarification seemed apropos in light of the fact that the article of mine that was linked illustrates that faith, belief, and such are not really chosen, though our choices can lead us to, or away from, the vicinity of various faith constructs.

                            I don't know if that satisfied whatever confusion, derision, or genuine curiosity foisted all those extra vowels into "okay," but in any case, I do hope it helped. :)

                              #2.14 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:23 PM EST
                              Zen-Hydra

                              AZPADDY

                              You do know that I included my last sentence in #2.3 to provoke an answer, don't you?

                              I try to take people at their word. It is your business if you choose to use dishonesty to manipulate those you interact with. It was unnecessary anyway, because I make an effort to respond to any post that addresses me directly.

                              Faith is simply a choice, Zen, and you can choose to not have faith, but you really shouid refrain from harsh judgementalism on those who choose to have faith. It only effects you. Negatively.

                              Faith is more than a simple choice. It is a series of ongoing choices. It is choosing moment-by-moment to deliberately suppress one's reason, and misattribute causality to an imaginary entity. As for passing judgement, I stated before that I have nothing but respect for my fellow human beings. I stand in judgement of ideas, not people, and I have no fear of retaliation from an idea.

                              • 4 votes
                              #2.15 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:34 PM EST
                              thelyamhound

                              Faith is more than a simple choice. It is a series of ongoing choices. It is choosing moment-by-moment to deliberately suppress one's reason, and misattribute causality to an imaginary entity.

                              I have to disagree. Not only from my usual angle--that belief is not chosen, and that I have illustrated as much (follow link)--but also from the other side: That the theist, or indeed, the religious individual of any stripe, is not suppressing reason. Reason is a process, not an absolute property; it is applied to observations, and observations are necessarily subjective. We have ways of whittling the vast array of subjective observations into posits that satisfy the broadest possible range, thus giving an illusion of objectivity; this is the beauty of empiricism. But believing that our senses even reflect extant phenomena is itself a leap of faith.

                              • 2 votes
                              #2.16 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 1:11 PM EST
                              thelyamhound

                              Amazing how so much can be misread and assumed from some comments.

                              Sure, but you do see how she so inferred, don't you? You isolated my expression as to my own religious framework, and treated it to a reply that I find difficult to read as anything but sarcasm. I opted not to assume that it was sarcastic, but, while you've taken exception to misreading and assumption, you haven't seen fit to clarify what you did intend.

                              • 2 votes
                              #2.17 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 1:37 PM EST
                              AZPADDY

                              thelyamhound

                              I replied: "OhhhKaayyy.." as one might say when another person says something seemingly unrelated or irrelevant. No offense intended. It would be as if I said "As a Catholic, I certainly don't begrudge anyone his or her faith." My being Catholic would have little to nothing to do with if I begrudge anyone anything. In other words, being Catholic doesn't give me a monopoly on common decency, and neither does being of another faith.

                              Again, no offense intended, just my response to a comment I read as irrelevent.

                                #2.18 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 8:34 PM EST
                                thelyamhound

                                The relevance, being as I don't know you, is simply to point out that I am someone who lives according to faith, so my assertion was not borne out of any particular position with regards to anyone's belief.

                                I think that's pretty relevant. Considering that this didn't seem perplexing to anyone else, I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to be condescending (no need to take that personally; I've yet to meet the organism qualified to condescend to me).

                                • 3 votes
                                #2.19 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 8:41 PM EST
                                AZPADDY

                                thelyamhound

                                So then, what exactly, does being a Nichiren Buddhist have to do with the discussion from comment numbers 2.6, and 2.7?

                                Sorry if I came across as condescending. That was not my intent.

                                  #2.20 - Sat Mar 3, 2012 9:46 AM EST
                                  ngp256

                                  Spot on Zen Hydra.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #2.21 - Sat Mar 3, 2012 3:15 PM EST
                                  thelyamhound

                                  So then, what exactly, does being a Nichiren Buddhist have to do with the discussion from comment numbers 2.6, and 2.7?

                                  My comment, "Not really," and the link to my article which that phrase contained, was what related to the discussion--namely, your assertion that faith/belief is a choice (it isn't, and my article illustrates why, at length). My being a Nichiren Buddhist relates, in turn, to my own comment; it illustrates only that I came to that conclusion not from a position of non-belief (we could argue that there is no such thing, but there are at least those who call their positions such), but from a position of belief.

                                    #2.22 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 12:09 PM EST
                                    JM California

                                    thelyamhound

                                    Do you have unshakeable faith in your beliefs?

                                    I respect you as a friend, for your advanced writing skills, and for your serious efforts exploring Buddhism. I can always be assured of learning something from your point of view and I thank you for that.

                                    But aren't you slamming the door on someones else's opinion that faith is a choice?

                                      #2.23 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 1:51 PM EST
                                      thelyamhound

                                      Do you have unshakeable faith in your beliefs?

                                      In a sense, all beliefs are shakeable; my belief that I exist as a separate entity from you, that we are having a conversation, that you are something other than a different function of the same mind, is pure supposition.

                                      In another sense, some beliefs are more shakeable than others. I will hold hard and fast to the belief that I exist, simply because there's no other presupposition that allows me to function.

                                      But aren't you slamming the door on someones else's opinion that faith is a choice?

                                      In the sense that making an assertion always slams the door on the opposite, sure. Beyond that, not really. I'm inviting debate. And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's only one way to believe; I'm suggesting that what one believes, whether one finds for the existence of deity or not, cannot be counter-factual or counter-intuitive according to the data available and the individual's capacity to organize data according to its truth or falsehood. That doesn't mean that everyone could, would, or should make the same finding. It means that someone who looks upon the world and sees chaos cannot simply decide to see order, any more than an individual could simply choose to believe he is a purple bear or that his house is made of cheese.

                                        #2.24 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:08 PM EST
                                        Zen-Hydra

                                        thelyamhound

                                        I have to disagree. Not only from my usual angle--that belief is not chosen, and that I have illustrated as much(follow link)--but also from the other side: That the theist, or indeed, the religious individual of any stripe, is not suppressing reason. Reason is a process, not an absolute property; it is applied to observations, and observations are necessarily subjective. We have ways of whittling the vast array of subjective observations into posits that satisfy the broadest possible range, thus giving an illusion of objectivity; this is the beauty of empiricism. But believing that our senses even reflect extant phenomena is itself a leap of faith.

                                        An individual's observations alone do not empirical evidence make. If such were the case anecdote would carry equal weight to established fact. In Adriaan de Groot's Empirical Cycle we see a depiction of how observations can be tested and scientifically evaluated.

                                        A Christian worldview precludes deductive reasoning. There are no answers for a theist to find that are not already answered in their ancient manuscripts. Humanity's natural tendencies towards the observation of causality are suppressed, and overwhelmed by the dogmatic insistence of the Christian imago.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #2.25 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:42 PM EST
                                        JM California

                                        I'm suggesting that what one believes, whether one finds for the existence of deity or not, cannot be counter-factual or counter-intuitive according to the data available and the individual's capacity to organize data according to its truth or falsehood.

                                        I would suggest that our "capacity" to organize data (comprehend data, experience data and see data) is severely limited by our make-up. Our sensory capabilities and rationalizations are finite. We are subject to similar limitations as a dog, which looks up to the sky and is incapable of recognizing all that it is observing.

                                        Spiritual faith is wildly speculative and wishful.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #2.26 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:43 PM EST
                                        Zen-Hydra

                                        thelyamhound

                                        That said, as a Nichiren Buddhist, I certainly don't begrudge any individual his or her faith.

                                        Buddhism, at its base level, has some interesting thought exercises about the nature of the universe and self, but its endless reductions to null serve little purpose in this life.

                                        I explored Buddhism's teachings once upon a time, but I ultimately found that its answers are to the wrong questions. That isn't to say that I don't still value some of the lessons I learned along the way (I value all knowledge). I still use meditation to focus an unquiet mind, and a life of moderation is generally accepted as a good idea. When divorced from the the silly supernatural trappings, Buddhism can be a legitimate secular philosophy.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #2.27 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 2:53 PM EST
                                        Zen-Hydra

                                        JM California

                                        I would suggest that our "capacity" to organize data (comprehend data, experience data and see data) is severely limited by our make-up. Our sensory capabilities and rationalizations are finite. We are subject to similar limitations as a dog, which looks up to the sky and is incapable of recognizing all that it is observing.

                                        This is why we (mankind) have created a vast array of tools. We are constantly making and refining devices that increase of capacity for perception, organization, and understanding. Unlike the dog from your example, we can compensate for our biological deficiencies.

                                        Spiritual faith is wildly speculative and wishful.

                                        It is purely wishful thinking. It is the active rejection of what is real, for what is preferred.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #2.28 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:00 PM EST
                                        JM California

                                        Unlike the dog from your example, we can compensate for our biological deficiencies.

                                        That is a comment of faith. I am not certain any current compensating is adequate, as much as we skillfully/empirically try. Yes, with the right tools, we can see ultraviolet light, an atom or an ultra massive star.

                                        My assumption is that we will always face insurmountable limitations, regardless of our perceived technological progress. I will never suggest we stop trying, but I do accept that some questions will remain incomprehensible. It takes billions of years for intelligent life to develop. It appears that knowledge is infinite and time isn't. Imo, the accumulative knowledge of a species is limited by a planet's lifespan.

                                          #2.29 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:13 PM EST
                                          thelyamhound

                                          An individual's observations alone do not empirical evidence make.

                                          Indeed not. But there is much that we experience that we do not measure empirically. I can't prove that my wife loves me, for instance; while my loving my wife is "proven," to me, I can't really "prove" it to her. I can illustrate it in such a way that she might come to believe it intuitively, or experientially, but it still has no recourse to empiricism.

                                          If such were the case anecdote would carry equal weight to established fact.

                                          I agree that anecdote should not carry equal weight to "established fact"--by which I'll assume you mean "empirically verifiable phenomen[on/a]"--in a legal or scientific forum. On the other hand, if we did not give some weight to anecdote in daily life, we'd never leave the house.

                                          A Christian worldview precludes deductive reasoning.

                                          I can't speak much on behalf of the Christian worldview, since I am not a Christian, but broadly speaking, NO religious worldview necessarily precludes deductive reasoning; it just requires a believe, an understanding, dare I say an admission that not all ways of knowing are subject to empirical measure.

                                          There are no answers for a theist to find that are not already answered in their ancient manuscripts.

                                          You're speaking less of the theist than of the traditionalist or the literalist. That the theist is marginally more susceptible to traditionalism or literalism, I grant as possible.

                                            #2.30 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:16 PM EST
                                            thelyamhound

                                            I would suggest that our "capacity" to organize data (comprehend data, experience data and see data) is severely limited by our make-up. Our sensory capabilities and rationalizations are finite. We are subject to similar limitations as a dog, which looks up to the sky and is incapable of recognizing all that it is observing.

                                            I agree. I would go further, and suggest that this uncertainty affects our empirical observations and processes as well, being as they are predicated on an assumption that our senses--subjective in their own right, though differently so than our cognitive faculties--present reliable data regarding extant phenomena.

                                            Spiritual faith is wildly speculative and wishful.

                                            All epistemology is wildly speculative. As for wishful, I would submit that neither the theist nor the atheist (nor the pantheist, the agnostic, what have you) truly believes based on wishing, since the natural inclination of any organism is to align its views with truth in order to ensure that action has an accurate basis.

                                              #2.31 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:22 PM EST
                                              JM California

                                              Our only hope for emergence from one paradigm to another is for the arrival of an idiot-savant.

                                              LOL

                                              I enjoyed the discussion. Thanks

                                                #2.32 - Mon Mar 5, 2012 3:27 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                RGoodfellow

                                                No offense sand, but I think your "story" can be looked at in a different way.

                                                Subjective (your) truth:

                                                you see yourself as a "reformed" gang-banger, a t. v., or movie type character, who has turned to god in some sort of "divine" transformation. You have a kid who joined the armed forces which makes you proud, and in some way helps justify your existence. Because of the "miraculous change you have undergone, you are sure god has forgiven you.

                                                Objective (real) truth:

                                                You were a complete waste of life. (if your story is true) and, you know it. In your mind, you believe that if there really is a god, you are in big trouble! Maybe if I make a big show of "believing" (you think) I can fool god into forgetting what a pos I was, and I won't burn in hell for eternity.

                                                Despite your glowing, and perhaps somewhat inflated opinion of your own towering intelect and wordsmanship, there is one part of your story I can say is the absolute truth, and I have no doubt of it. I will let you guess what that is.

                                                • 12 votes
                                                #3 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:36 AM EST
                                                SANDMAN-2531700

                                                (if your story is true)

                                                I see that you question the veracity of my story. Could it be that the sheer eloquence of my ratiocination has befuddled you? Conversely, the same can't be said of your faulty reasoning, no offence there goodfellow. First off, you confer your own subjectivity to me and make assumptions on what you believe I must be thinking. And secondly, your supposed "objective truth" amounts to nothing more than your own subjective thinking again. The reason is that it does not match up with the facts. I grew up in a religion that does not believe in the concept of hell and therefore there was no fear of burning for eternity. As for my belief in God's existence prior to my conversion it was muddled in skepticism at best.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #3.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:53 PM EST
                                                Truth Sleuth

                                                the sheer eloquence of my ratiocination...

                                                Two points:

                                                If one is eloquent, his/her words speak to it, and the listener or reader will decide if the message was delivered eloquently; it's not necessary to point it out, nor is it good form. It speaks to insecurity and doubt. Yours.

                                                Secondly, there was no ratiocination in your article. You have yet to utilize the principles of logic, reason and proof to make your case. All you've done is give an accounting of how you decided to change your life and what you chalk it up to. That simply doesn't constitute the logical process that is "ratiocination."

                                                • 14 votes
                                                #3.2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:22 PM EST
                                                SANDMAN-2531700

                                                Truth Slueth, my reference to the eloquence of my article is more jest than it is anything else. Besides, what's there to feel insecure about? I'm just a high-school dropout who spent most of his youth strung out on drugs. I don't expect some Pulitzer prize for my writings. And yet here I am, being read by such an accomplished journalist such as yourself. As for your failure to see the ratiocination in my article, it's not my fault that you lack the perspicacity to follow the logic that was presented. Read it again, you might catch it the second time around.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #3.3 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:41 PM EST
                                                mrsrachelm

                                                /giggle

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #3.4 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:54 PM EST
                                                Truth Sleuth

                                                My apologies, Sandman. I didn't mean to be insulting. I think you are rather eloquent; you didn't have to call it to my attention. I inferred it all by myself by reading your article. I have no problem with your writing; I thought your article was very interesting and very readable. And I was extremely impressed with how you changed your life so radically.

                                                I do have a problem though with your assertion that you've proved the existence of God. According to what's scientifically considered to be required for proof, you simply haven't provided it. That's all.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #3.5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:04 PM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                'I'm just a high-school dropout who spent most of his youth strung out on drugs. I don't expect some Pulitzer prize for my writings. And yet here I am, being read by such an accomplished journalist such as yourself.'

                                                Well dude, you did make the humble claim of having irrefutable evidence of God's existence, so consider yourself lucky that anyone took the time out of their day to respond to your ridiculous assertion, and in a polite way at that.

                                                Myself, well, I can't quite manage the class of others who have posted here, and that's why I have no problem saying that you've stumbled from one crutch to another.

                                                Ever the victim.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #3.6 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:15 PM EST
                                                vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                Wow, nice name... Christian Dumazz, your snarkiness is duly noted....

                                                yes, I had to giggle to, mrsrachelm...beautiful.

                                                I have always wondered... how do people explain away a changed life?

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #3.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:52 AM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                Let me see if I've got a bead on what qualifies for reality in your world, Vol...I'm snarky because of my newsvine handle, which is of course magnitudes of order more offensive than your belief in the eternal torment those who don't subscribe to your misanthropic wish-thinking fueled wet dream will suffer. 'Bout right?

                                                Duly noted...

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #3.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:00 AM EST
                                                Andrew-1162039

                                                how do people explain away a changed life?

                                                Change is inevitable. A person in the Sandman's situation most likely changes or dies. When a Christian makes those changes they attribute it to God.

                                                It's the old Christian surviving a plane crash scenario. One Christian survives and it's a miracle from Jesus, ignoring the fact that 200 other Christians who prayed to the same God just burned alive. Sandman appears to be Hispanic, a community which is overwhelmingly Christian. I would imagine their were any number of Christian men in similar scenarios who weren't quite so lucky and didn't make the changes to their life that the Sandman did.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #3.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:17 AM EST
                                                RGoodfellow

                                                sand, you come off like a "jail-house lawyer" which is fine, I am very glad that you take the time to look up impressive (to you) words to use in your writings. A long held point of style (amongst writers) is that to use a large, obscure word where a small, common one will do, only provides ones work with an air of pomposity, and vanity. It has been punned, "you are what you write".

                                                • 9 votes
                                                #3.10 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:38 PM EST
                                                Sir Richard Owen

                                                sand, you come off like a "jail-house lawyer" which is fine

                                                No, it's not. You need to look at #6.15, and see what happened to the last person that tried to make this "personal."

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #3.11 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:51 PM EST
                                                RGoodfellow

                                                First, who asked you? and second, what got you so "upset"? There are many people who, while in prison, study the law in order to help themselves instead of trusting solely in public defenders, or "newby" lawyers", they are referred to in that way. Why do you have a problem with it? AND, if I may ask, "Sir" really?

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #3.12 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:24 PM EST
                                                Elaine-1503791

                                                Sandman doesn't sound like a "jailhouse lawyer" to me. His article is a beautiful story of redemption, pure and simple.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #3.13 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:31 PM EST
                                                katrix

                                                AND, if I may ask, "Sir" really?

                                                Do you want to discuss the topic, or do you want to make it personal?

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #3.14 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:33 AM EST
                                                RGoodfellow

                                                katrix,

                                                I may be wrong, but I think that the details given in sandman's story are quite "personal", therefor it is he, and not I who have made it "personal" Also, he most definitely sounds like a "jail-house lawyer" to me. I don't care what he sounds like to you, so why do you care what he sounds like to me?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #3.15 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:33 PM EST
                                                JM California

                                                You need to look at #6.15, and see what happened to the last person that tried to make this "personal."

                                                Am I missing something? The author has made this entire article personal by describing his "miraculous" transformation from low-life drug induced gang banging to finding God.

                                                Some of us are not entirely impressed, especially with the headline and poor reasoning that follows.

                                                I completely agree with #3.15.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #3.16 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:03 PM EST
                                                Uthaclena

                                                vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                I have always wondered... how do people explain away a changed life?

                                                People don't "explain it away." There are clearly life-transforming events. Many of us simply do not need the explanation of a merciful external deity deciding to pour grace onto certain people and not others to accept the benefits of such an experience. In fact, many of us are very interested in the circumstances under which such life-changes occur, because it is not only religious believers who have them.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #3.17 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:54 PM EST
                                                RGoodfellow

                                                JM,

                                                Thanks for the support! Those of us with "critical thinking skills" need to band together!

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #3.18 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:15 PM EST
                                                JM California

                                                My pleasure. F/R on its way. :)

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #3.19 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:19 PM EST
                                                Phoenix-77

                                                I have always wondered... how do people explain away a changed life?

                                                Self reflection, introspection, Epiphany. None of which require a supernatural entity.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #3.20 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 10:02 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                Roy Batty

                                                Truth may transcend subjectivity, but does not transcend objectivity.

                                                • 10 votes
                                                Reply#4 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:37 AM EST
                                                FreedomIsAChoice

                                                Ultimately, faith is personal. What makes God real in one person's life does not necessarily lend itself to making God real for others. If God is real to me, I do not require proof of God's existence. If God is myth to me, no amount of testimony will convince me otherwise.

                                                Good luck on your journey Sandman.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:57 AM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                I don't get it - I came here looking for an article irrefutably proving God's existence. Did I get a bad link?

                                                • 12 votes
                                                #6 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:25 PM EST
                                                katrix

                                                Yeah, no proof here ... move along, nothing to see here. Interesting article, well written, but empty promises of proof. I would post the definitions of proof, evidence, and such, but I assume Sandman knows them and chooses to ignore them.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #6.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:06 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                What proof? Faith requires no proof. Faith is based on principals of a understanding of a higher power. Who's is right, or who's is wrong? What exactly is faith if you don't stand for or against it?

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #6.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:47 AM EST
                                                vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                Have we seen the wind? Uh no, we haven't....we have, however, seen the EFFECTS of the wind - trees and limbs blowing, etc. Are we to say there is no wind simply because we do not see it? Same with faith...

                                                And I go back to this:

                                                I have always wondered... how do people explain away a changed life?

                                                The effects of a changed life is a miracle and God is the God of miracles...

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #6.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:00 AM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                That's exactly the point, Vol...we have been subject to the sickening effects of faith for too long.

                                                This is a Poe, right? I mean, have we seen the WIND? No, no...haven't seen the wind vol, therefore, God exists!

                                                Vol logic!

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #6.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:11 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Life is a series of miracles that some call faith. I prefer to end my final days on this earth, and look into the face of God and say "thank you for my blessing here on Earth" Thank you for the Sunset so beautiful if brought tears to my eyes, thank you for my children which light up the universe, thank you for my friends who hold my hands in hard times, and thank you for knowing I'm just imperfect me, and loving me every minute imperfect as I am. That's faith.

                                                • 6 votes
                                                #6.5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:15 AM EST
                                                Christian DumazzExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                                                ...and all of the sub-saharan, HIV positive, starving children holding hands praising your merciful God as you sing Glory Glory Hallelujah...that's faith. And it's @!$%#ing stupid.

                                                Grow up.

                                                • 9 votes
                                                #6.6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:20 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Do you think that a loving God would deliver this? I think the first one to cry to cry over the destruction of children is God. He gives us free will, and we choose. Don't be so quick to blame God for everything that he gave us free will over. Blame the selfish.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #6.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:40 AM EST
                                                Christian DumazzExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                                                Why would he cry, when he is all-powerful? Why wouldn't he just spare the suffering? Oh right, free will! Those children freely chose to sin, and they are selfish, ergo, starve children, because God loves you.

                                                You're disgusting.

                                                • 9 votes
                                                #6.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:48 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                I voted you up. Here's the deal. God is all powerful, but gives us free choice. Yes God loves me even if I @!$%# up a million times. My brother passed away at the tender age of 6 months. It would have been really easy to blame God. In my heart I knew he took my brother home, and sent him here initially to teach me faith, but I wanted to blame him for delivering a Downs Syndome brother to to me. I learned that sometimes faith has a price, (not my brother mind you) but my faith that God had him covered. I will see him again.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #6.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:13 AM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                And here we have the height of religious arrogance...God sacrificed another on my behalf, so that I could learn of faith!

                                                Please. And no need to do me any favors. You may require the 'voting up' of your comments to satisfy your vanity, but I don't. It's clear that you believe God has a special purpose for you, even to the extent that someone else must be sacrificed for you to realize it.

                                                Nice god you have there.

                                                • 9 votes
                                                #6.10 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:19 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Fair enough. I wish to do you no favors other than we are all one. I will never, ever push my faith on someone not willing to accept it. What good would that do? Listen Christian, and that's my Son's name, I'm not trying to convert you to my God, Okay, we good with that? I have not vanity reasons, I'm but a simple person. Your faith is...well..your faith. I respect that. I'm sorry that I made you angry.

                                                • 7 votes
                                                #6.11 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:37 AM EST
                                                ngp256

                                                soooo this supposedly all powerful "god" who supposedly loves all of us so much, just simply sits there while some insane lunatic brutally beats his own infant to death? What the heck did the baby do? What it the free will of the baby to get beaten? I mean a omnipotent being would simply be able to think, and poof! Baby abuser in prison, hell or whatever, and baby safe, unharmed. Or what about the poor gay kid who is brutally beaten or murdered simply for how he or she is born? Where is this supposed "god" when women are murdered by the govnt in iran???

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #6.12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:13 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Satisfy my vanity huh?

                                                Please. And no need to do me any favors. You may require the 'voting up' of your comments to satisfy your vanity

                                                Nope.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #6.13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:48 AM EST
                                                thelopes

                                                Have we seen the wind? Uh no, we haven't....we have, however, seen the EFFECTS of the wind - trees and limbs blowing, etc. Are we to say there is no wind simply because we do not see it? Same with faith...

                                                The trick is not to find an event that is compatible with the idea of a God intervening - like Sandman suggests - but to find the event that suggests the hand of a deity.

                                                While 'wind' isn't optically visible, the ways various we can look at the issue has lead us directly to air currents.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #6.14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 AM EST
                                                Sally

                                                You're disgusting.

                                                Christian Dumazz, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.

                                                Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

                                                • 6 votes
                                                #6.15 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 PM EST
                                                vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                Wow, that was an interesting derail..I don't condemn people for their beliefs (or lack thereof) but some obviously do, for theirs...sad, really.

                                                Again, nice piece, Sandman. God bless.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #6.16 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:52 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                ngp256

                                                um, Sandman, I did not see one ounce of proof, or evidence.

                                                • 9 votes
                                                Reply#7 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:35 PM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Do you need one?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #7.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:48 AM EST
                                                Christian Dumazz

                                                One would do, Runner99. Have you got one?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #7.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:27 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Look into the face of your child, see a sunset, have thankfulness for the wisdom of your parents, smell a flower, hold a dying family member and tell them you'll see them again. That's God my friend.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #7.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:44 AM EST
                                                TiG.

                                                Runner

                                                It may indeed be God, but is it irrefutable evidence?

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #7.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:46 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Nope. There is no irrefutable evidence except what you feel in your heart and soul. When I die I want to leave here knowing that I gave it my best shot at making it better. I want to know that my creator would be proud of me and say welcome home Child, I always had your back, and the ones of whom you loved. I want my creator to know I had his/her back too.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #7.5 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:00 AM EST
                                                TiG.

                                                Runner

                                                And I think Sandman is perfectly justified to personally interpret his transformation as being the work of God. This is an intimately personally thing that he alone deeply understands. For him (his base of knowledge and the very personal way he thinks) this change may indeed by irrefutable evidence. I take no issue with that.

                                                I just wish people would not suggest they have objective proof of God. Such claims (unless one was genuine of course) simply widen the divide between theists and atheists.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #7.6 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:06 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                I have no such proof. My little brother, born with serious Downs Syndrome was the very best blessing God ever gave me. I thought he was so perfect. Yet God called him home. Good for him, I love him, and he is in very capable hands. Don't ever tell me that God does not know what he is doing, YES HE DOES. I trust him with my little brother.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #7.7 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:22 AM EST
                                                LassenPark

                                                You left a demand for me on another seed and I was not able to respond before that was closed down. Do you really want an answer or was it just the usual posturing? If not the latter, you can contact me directly.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #7.8 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:33 AM EST
                                                TiG.

                                                LassenPark

                                                Who are you addressing?

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #7.9 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:58 PM EST
                                                ngp256

                                                yes I do need proof, he said he would provide it.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #7.10 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:25 PM EST
                                                katrix

                                                His title claimed he'd provide proof. No proof was provided. That's what this discussion should be about. His faith isn't in question - his claim that he had proof is. He failed miserably at that.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #7.11 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:38 AM EST
                                                TiG.

                                                katrix

                                                Absolutely. Sandman has taken an extreme position and has stipulated that he has proof that God exists. Failure to provide proof hurts the credibility of all theists and makes it more difficult for atheists and theists to find common ground to foster some level of understanding and agreement.

                                                It is wrong for atheists to claim proof that no god exists and wrong for theists to claim proof that a particular god exists. Both are irresponsible, counter-productive positions.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #7.12 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:10 AM EST
                                                katrix

                                                Well said. I've seen no proof of any god - whether it's Zeus, Apollo, the Judeo-Christian god, or any other. Yet I will never say none of those could possibly exist. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist. I'd love to find some evidence to tell me that one of the hundreds of gods people believe in actually exist, since I'm not so arrogant as to think that I personally have the right answer and the rest of you will suffer.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #7.13 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:22 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                redphish

                                                Your article is basically the story of how you came to believe the Christian god is real. I don't see anything in it however, that would be any kind of objective evidence of that god's actual existence.

                                                • 10 votes
                                                Reply#8 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:02 PM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Who do you believe God to be?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #8.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:49 AM EST
                                                Reply
                                                jameseg

                                                SANDMAN-2531700, your article may not convince a lot of unbelievers that God exists.

                                                But I think your life story offers strong circumstantial evidence that faith in God can turn one's life around.

                                                To quote an approximate English translation of famous words the Frenchman Voltaire is credited with stating a few centuries ago, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

                                                Below is a link to one of the numerous webpages that include the quote credited to Voltaire.

                                                TheFreeDictionary.com article

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:32 PM EST
                                                katrix

                                                jameseg, now that I will vote up. This article presented no proof whatsoever of any god's existence, but it was a strong story of how faith in a god can turn one's life around. Good comment.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #9.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:09 AM EST
                                                Runner99

                                                Faith is faith. I do believe in God but don't expect you to. You have to believe in what ever your higher power is. I love that Sandman gives credit to God. You know, sometimes people reach a point in their lives where "Their God" says enough!!! Give me your problems, give me your worries, deal with what you have chosen, but I'm here. I love you, forgive you, you are my child and are always welcome home. You are stupid, but I love you anyway......Love God.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #9.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:27 AM EST
                                                jameseg

                                                Thanks katrix for your kind words in comment #9.1 replying to my comment #9.

                                                I personally believe in a higher power (that I choose to call God) and am confident that my faith has made a positive difference in my life, just as SANDMAN-2531700's faith has in his.

                                                Regardless of whether or not God's existence is proven (or even whether or not God exists), those of us with faith who seek to live a life doing good in obedience to that faith seem blessed.

                                                And I am confident persons who experience the change SANDMAN-2531700 has experienced bless others, too.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #9.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:42 PM EST
                                                whino33

                                                You believe in God. God is all knowing and all powerful. God is perfect. The world we live in is merely God's finest creation.

                                                Fine. Have it your way. I'm not impressed with your God. There are better, more enlightening stories out there that actually make sense. Try reading Daniel Quinn for instance.

                                                  #9.4 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:30 PM EST
                                                  jameseg

                                                  Fine. Have it your way.

                                                  Thanks, whino33. You are entitled to believe as you see fit, too.

                                                  And there are many different definitions of God, many concepts of God or god, in addition to the monotheistic God of Christianity and some other religions.

                                                  But I am firmly convinced that faith in God helps one to seek to live the righteous life that benefits oneself and others. To quote or paraphrase words credited to Buddha centuries ago, "be good and do good."

                                                  And Jesus perhaps took it another step further by urging his followers to love even their/our enemies.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #9.5 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:11 PM EST
                                                  Christian Dumazz

                                                  @ james

                                                  'But I am firmly convinced that faith in God helps one to seek to live the righteous life that benefits oneself and others.'

                                                  What do you make of those of us who don't have faith in God?

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #9.6 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:30 PM EST
                                                  jameseg

                                                  What do you make of those of us who don't have faith in God?

                                                  Christian Dumazz, I believe there are atheists and agnostics that come closer to obeying God than many who believe in God, because they sincerely and actively seek to do the right thing.

                                                  Romans 2:14 discusses this from a Christian perspective, as I see it. Atheists who obey God without knowing God's law are doing as well as Christians who claim to believe in God's law, but don't obey it. The analogy between Jews and Gentiles in Paul's writing in Romans 2:14 seems appropriate to me.

                                                  However, as a former agnostic who found prayer beneficial even as an agonostic, I firmly believe that those of us who enjoy faith in God or pray in uncertainty are generally better off than committed atheists.

                                                  I am curious: If you are one who doesn't have faith in God, why is your Newsvine name Christian Dumazz? Did you grow up in a Christian home with that name?

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #9.7 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:29 PM EST
                                                  Christian Dumazz

                                                  'I firmly believe that those of us who enjoy faith in God or pray in uncertainty are generally better off than committed atheists.'

                                                  What makes you come to that conclusion?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #9.8 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:42 PM EST
                                                  jameseg

                                                  What makes you come to that conclusion?

                                                  Christian Dumazz, there are studies indicating that religious people are happier than those who don't have faith in God. Such studies of course demonstrate correlation rather than causation.

                                                  But from personal experience, I feel happier now than when I was an agnostic. And I feel agnostics who admit uncertainty about God's existence are being more realistic than atheists who reject any and all concepts of God (or god). Indeed, an unabridged dictionary probably contains a definition for a "god" that even an atheist could believe in.

                                                  You didn't answer my questions in comment #9.7; I would appreciate answers if you don't mind sharing something of your personal background.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #9.9 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:17 AM EST
                                                  TiG.

                                                  And I feel agnostics who admit uncertainty about God's existence are being more realistic than atheists who reject any and all concepts of God (or god).

                                                  Agreed

                                                  In fact I submit there are four major positions:

                                                  • gnostic atheist - no god exists!
                                                  • agnostic atheist - I do not believe in a god but would believe given proper evidence
                                                  • agnostic theist - I believe in a god but it is based upon faith and I know I could be wrong
                                                  • gnostic theist - (my) god exists!

                                                  The agnostic positions (agnostic atheist and agnostic theist) include the very human element of uncertainty. Since none of us have TRUTH (nobody can prove the existence or non-existence of a god) the only practical positions are those where we hold a particular belief (atheist or theist) but temper that belief with the acknowledgement that ultimately nobody really 'knows' (i.e. can prove) there is (or is not) a god.

                                                  In short, we all need to recognize how little we know of what we call 'reality'.

                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #9.10 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:55 AM EST
                                                  Christian Dumazz

                                                  @James

                                                  To answer your question, I was lucky enough to have been raised by parents who did not subscribe to wish-thinking.

                                                  I find it interesting that you reference 'studies' that indicate religious people are happier than those who don't have faith (which I don't dispute - the placebo effect is well established in scientific studies). What is interesting is that you find science relevant when it suits your needs, but when it asks you to provide evidence for your claims, you suddenly find it irrelevant.


                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #9.11 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:12 AM EST
                                                  Dale95

                                                  ("In short, we all need to recognize how little we know of what we call 'reality'.")

                                                  And…, how little we know about that which we define as GOD. And, just who are we anyway, to define God into our little box of knowledge? And to set-up our own parameters and limitations upon his/her/its existence, intentions, and manifestations anyways. ROTFLMAO! Talk about arrogance. There's only one God, hahaha.

                                                  "All-powerful", in my book means no limitations, no boundaries, and no promises that can't be altered at a whim.

                                                  GODOGODOGODOG!!! Chew on that!!! LOL.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #9.12 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:49 AM EST
                                                  WatcherInTheShadows

                                                  @TiG:

                                                  I by and large agree with your spectrum as offered. Save one difference. It is my opinion that there is such a position as, I guess it could be called "True Agnosticism" or simply agnosticism. It's pretty much a declaration of "I do not believe but neither do I disbelieve.". Which is different for example than "I do not believe but given proper evidence I would.".

                                                    #9.13 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:29 AM EST
                                                    jameseg

                                                    What is interesting is that you find science relevant when it suits your needs, but when it asks you to provide evidence for your claims, you suddenly find it irrelevant.

                                                    Christian Dumazz, I'm not sure what you mean by this.

                                                    I always find science relevant. But scientists are humans and make mistakes, so I only consider scientific studies one source of information.

                                                    I love the quote below from TiG.'s comment #9.10, which I agree with 100%.

                                                    In short, we all need to recognize how little we know of what we call 'reality'.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #9.14 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:13 AM EST
                                                    TiG.

                                                    Wraith

                                                    I know your position on this. There are many ways to formalize the notion of 'belief'. Trouble is I cannot reconcile your view with mine because we approach things slightly differently.

                                                    One possibly mapping to your view is:

                                                    • atheist - gnostic atheist
                                                    • agnostic - agnostic atheist or agnostic theist
                                                    • theist - gnostic theist

                                                    But this does not really work for you because I view agnosticism (as it applies to belief systems of course) as falling into one of the camps of atheism or theism. You do not see the need and leave agnosticism on its own: "we simply do not know". That is perfectly logical but not my view.

                                                    My position is that the agnostic will either believe in a deity (agnostic theist) or will not (agnostic atheist). Both agnostic views of course recognize that they may be wrong. The pure "we simply do not know" in my view defaults to agnostic atheist.

                                                    Given that analysis, would you be comfortable with this mapping?

                                                    • atheist - gnostic atheist
                                                    • agnostic - agnostic atheist
                                                    • theist - gnostic or agnostic theist
                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #9.15 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:59 AM EST
                                                    WatcherInTheShadows

                                                    @TiG.:

                                                    You know TiG. I'm going to make a confession. I came to this after some thought subsequent to making that post. I, honestly, now think my response was largely driven by my personal emotional response to New Atheism. Which is distinct from just atheism. I think you have agreed, can't remember precisely. But, as you have most likely noticed I have an ongoing adversarial relationship with them and spend a good amount of my time on NV arguing with them. And that, I think, has somewhat colored my view of atheism as a whole since I most readily identify label of agnostic. And it doesn't help since in my opinion that they often try to portray their particular ideology as the be all end all of atheism.

                                                    So, yes, after careful consideration I do think you are correct.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #9.16 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:54 PM EST
                                                    TiG.

                                                    Wraith

                                                    I do not think this is so much a question of correctness but rather how we deal with semantic nuances.

                                                    On New Atheism I think you know that I am quite tired of watching people attack other's beliefs. Yes, I totally accept the position that religion has plenty of bad consequences. But what the new atheist attack machine does not sufficiently recognize (IMO) is that a lot of people need the structure and sense of meaning that religions provide. The new atheists can make a very strong, logical case that religion is fiction and that religious organizations perpetuate their fantasy. But the new atheists reject the idea that the fantasy can also have beneficial effects. The good side of religions correlate with teaching people the importance of being good, decent members of society (among other things). That is often downplayed. Instead, the bad side of religions are illustrated such as: cognitive dissonance (e.g. denial of scientific findings), rallying of people to a sacred cause (e.g. the Islamic jihad), perpetuation of ancient beliefs (e.g. homosexuality is evil), etc.

                                                    In short, new atheists seek, it seems, the abolishment of all religion. Not only is that unrealistic, I am not at all convinced it is desirable.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #9.17 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:33 PM EST
                                                    WatcherInTheShadows

                                                    TiG.

                                                    I find the idea down right oppressive along the lines of establishing thought police..

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #9.18 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:49 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    mrsrachelm

                                                    I'll be the minnow swimming in shark infested waters and say thank you, Sandman, for sharing your story. I'm happy for you. Some of us on the vine, and there aren't many in comparison to the nay-sayers, "get it".

                                                    Congrats to your son as well. May he serve with distinction. Please thank him for me for his service.

                                                    • 6 votes
                                                    Reply#10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:59 PM EST
                                                    katrix

                                                    Hello, minnow. I might not agree with the proof - you have to admit there was no "ifferutable truth" here - but I loved the story and am happy for anyone who finds something that turns their life around, whether it's a god or something else.

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    #10.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:19 AM EST
                                                    JM California

                                                    ...but I loved the story and am happy for anyone who finds something that turns their life around, whether it's a god or something else.

                                                    I didn't love the story at all. In fact, the only good is that his kids have chosen a proper path. I wonder if the mother deserves the credit...she's not mentioned? I don't give a @!$%# that he's chosen a fairy tale to lead his life.

                                                    Further, I may have loved the story if the author actually turned his life around by redressing his wrongs. There is no mention of this most basic act of repentance. He is not a quadriplegic and has no acceptable religious or legal excuse to not restore the damages that he admittedly caused.

                                                    Having been the victim of gang banging criminals, I refuse to give false praise.

                                                    Personal responsibility does not have a statute of limitations.

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    #10.2 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:37 PM EST
                                                    katrix

                                                    OK, JM, you make a good point. No actual repentance (not that I believe in that stuff). But I have known a few people who somehow find "god" and that's the one thing that gets them off their asses. I've known many more who find "god" and don't change at all.

                                                    I'll come right out and admit it. I had some wine with friends, shouldn't have commented, and the story was horrible. My aplogies. This isn't some Daydream Believer land we live in, in reality.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #10.3 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:43 AM EST
                                                    JM California

                                                    Well stated, Katrix. That's reasonable.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #10.4 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 11:39 AM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    DocPhil

                                                    Sandman

                                                    We are what we believe we are. A deity is what we make of it. A simple bit of logic. If, tomorrow, man's recollection of "god" were erased, god would cease to exist. If, tomorrow, a "god's" recollection of man were erased, man would still be here. We learned to believe in a higher power when we were primitives with no knowledge of our lives or deaths. We were here and we died. There was a need to rationalize. That translated into the belief in gods. That system morphed throughout the eons into differing manifestations of some anthropomorphic figure that would provide eternal life and show us the way to an "ultimate" good. We now live in a world populated by people who have multiple belief systems. Each one thinking that their's is the "way". The reasons are still the same as they were for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. That belief is still grounded in the fear of death. For the believer, life is meaningful only if we give ourselves up to god. No matter how much we "sin" during life, god will save us for all eternity. We may have come a long way in the past 25,000 years, but we stubbornly hold on to what happens to us after death.

                                                    I'm not denigrating your beliefs, Sandman. If it works for you, fine. But it surely is not proof of anything.

                                                    • 12 votes
                                                    #11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:45 PM EST
                                                    Truth Sleuth

                                                    Beautifully said, respectfully said, and especially well said, Doc. You nailed it, imo.

                                                    • 7 votes
                                                    #11.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:53 PM EST
                                                    SANDMAN-2531700

                                                    Doctor Phil? What the heck are you doing here, shouldn't you be exploiting some poor sap's misery somewhere? Anyways, this argument about man inventing God out of some primal fear of death doesn't hold any water to the facts. Here is a much simpler bit of logic: If man is so fearful of death, why add another layer to that fear by introducing the idea of eternal torment? Why deal with the inconvenience of denying ourselves the carnal pleasures of our natural passions? Why deal with sin at all? The truth is that man is naturally selfish and driven by convenience. If man had created god, he would have created one in his own image, one who wasn't so uptight about all this sin stuff. The reason is that the imperfect does not beget the more perfect but something far less perfect in order to set the standard low enough for man to meet. This inventing of god in man's image and lowering of the standard is more of a recent phenomena.

                                                    This topic brings up another point. That is, why are we so preoccupied with death to begin with? I wonder if chimpanzees worry about death. And if so why haven't they found a way to rationalized their fear? After all, what's the difference if we are nothing more than hairless monkeys? Oh yeah, it's that thing called intelligence that gives us the ability to rationalize and contemplate concepts of logic such as life and death and that which lays beyond. Could this be the result of man being created in God's image and not the other way around?

                                                    As to God ceasing to exist along with our recollection of him; it would be like jumping out of an airplane and believing that you would cease to fall by simply forgetting the law of gravity. Might take a while but eventually you would hit the ground. Same with God, might take a while but eventually you would hit the ground of that reality known as death and stand face to face with the real and living God. (Hebrews 9:27) "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    #11.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:58 PM EST
                                                    Andrew-1162039

                                                    If man is so fearful of death, why add another layer to that fear by introducing the idea of eternal torment? Why deal with the inconvenience of denying ourselves the carnal pleasures of our natural passions? Why deal with sin at all? The truth is that man is naturally selfish and driven by convenience.

                                                    That's pretty simple. You create the explanation that there's something after death first. Then that belief becomes revered and the tribal/religious leader creates an additional idea, say Hell, to help propagate social rules for the society. The anthropological history of religion fits very well with this. You first see simple forms of animism and ancestor worship and more complex systems which dictate behavior and assign punishment don't arise until much later, and when they do arise it's in city states where the need for a more complex moral system than basic tribal morality has arisen to deal with the complexities of the social structure. Religious edicts about sexuality can almost all be explained by a patriarchal society which utilizes paternal inheritance and has a high infant mortality rate.

                                                    As to God ceasing to exist along with our recollection of him; it would be like jumping out of an airplane and believing that you would cease to fall by simply forgetting the law of gravity. Might take a while but eventually you would hit the ground. Same with God, might take a while but eventually you would hit the ground of that reality known as death and stand face to face with the real and living God.

                                                    Can turn that argument around just as easily. No matter how hard you wish and pray God is real you'll just end up worm-food like the rest of us. Whatever floats your boat though.

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #11.3 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:23 PM EST
                                                    Roy Batty

                                                    You create the explanation that there's something after death first. Then that belief becomes revered and the tribal/religious leader creates an additional idea, say Hell, to help propagate social rules for the society.

                                                    Then they are free to create additionalideas, all require adherence to avoid going to that hell. Before long, they demand absolute obedience to save one's immortal soul. Then, they have a population to control.

                                                    And it is all about control.

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #11.4 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:04 PM EST
                                                    whino33

                                                    I like the airplane example, except you are using it completely wrong. A better test would be to get 100 people to jump out of an airplane. Have fifty of them pray to survive and the other fifty refrain from praying.

                                                    What do you think would happen?

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    #11.5 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:32 PM EST
                                                    TruettCollins

                                                    They would all most likely die...after all they are tempting God.

                                                      #11.6 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:00 PM EST
                                                      whino33

                                                      Tempting? Sounds to me like they have an abundance of faith. That's supposed to be a good thing I thought?

                                                      But yes - they would all die, because praying, much like wishing, accomplishes nothing.

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      #11.7 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:20 PM EST
                                                      TruettCollins

                                                      No, they would be putting themselves at risk on purpose and demanding that God prove something.... If you don't believe in Prayer don't pray, but those who have seen and felt the power of prayer know different.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #11.8 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:14 PM EST
                                                      whino33

                                                      Those of you who have seen and felt the power of prayer are no different than the crazy guy on the subway who claims God is speaking through him.

                                                      • 4 votes
                                                      #11.9 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:45 AM EST
                                                      Dale95

                                                      whino- How can you say that? The 'Power of Prayer'…, is a deep-focused thinking kind of prioritizing, that has powerful affects on our perceptions. You don't have to be religious to find clarity in meditation and focused concentration.

                                                        #11.10 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:28 PM EST
                                                        whino33

                                                        Praying is not the same thing as meditating. While meditating may improve your own performance, praying is often reserved for things that you can not control and does not actually affect the outcome in any way whatsoever.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #11.11 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:30 PM EST
                                                        Dale95

                                                        I'm not going to pick at the many nuances of semantics with the terms here because it doesn't really matter.

                                                        Deeply focused concentrated thought, is what it's all about, regardless of which method you use to get there.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #11.12 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:57 PM EST
                                                        whino33

                                                        You're missing the entire point. Most people pray for something they can't control, such as a sick family member recovering. Deeply focused concentrated thought will not help at all.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #11.13 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:44 PM EST
                                                        TruettCollins

                                                        No you miss the entire point....your claim of "most people" proves that you have a very limited view on prayer, its reasons, and how it is to be done. First how people pray is not the issue, it is how those who follow God's word pray that is the issue, yes we pray for those who are sick, knowing that their illness is beyond our control, and knowing that they might not recover, but knowing that God can help us in what ever we face, and knowing that it will all work out to his will in the end. Then you go on to ignore the times when even your exalted medical science backs off and says it is in his hands, and the many times they say that they don't know why someone when according to all their methodology they should not have been.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #11.14 - Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:22 PM EST
                                                        ngp256

                                                        and 100% of the time your supposed all powerful "god" sits on his *** and does nothing is really telling. At least medical science tries, sure it fails, sure the medical community does not know everything, but they try.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #11.15 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:16 AM EST
                                                        TruettCollins

                                                        Medical science tries, God does because he does know everything even if you don't understand it.

                                                          #11.16 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:17 PM EST
                                                          ngp256

                                                          god does what? sit on his *** doing nothing?

                                                          • 3 votes
                                                          #11.17 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:48 PM EST
                                                          TruettCollins

                                                          In cases where it is his will he heals, in cases where people reject his will he does not, in cases where the illness is needed to bring something in his will to come about the illness remains....as I said even if you don't understand it, there is a reason.

                                                            #11.18 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:27 PM EST
                                                            ngp256

                                                            riiiiight except the doctors help heal the person, not "god", the person's own restoration system helps heal the person "god" does not. Oh I understand. hahahaha, and Im ROTF. So in other words this so called "god" makes innocent babies, and young children suffer horribly, some later dying from cancer, TB, birth defects, and other illnesses, and ailments simply because he wants to do something, or prove something? Or this so called "god" just allows a tiny innocent child who has done no harm to anyone, does not have even the capacity yet to "sin" get brutally beaten, or murdered by a psycho? What about Kaylee Anthony? Where was this so called "god" to help her? I mean this so called "god" is all powerful, and all present, why couldnt he lift a eyelash to help this innocent, and good child from her attacker, and murderer? The silence is astounding from this so called "god" quite a neglectful parent so to speak.

                                                            • 4 votes
                                                            #11.19 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:48 PM EST
                                                            TruettCollins

                                                            So now you call a lot of doctors liars......

                                                              #11.20 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:54 PM EST
                                                              whino33

                                                              Person A feels a pain in his chest and begins praying to God.

                                                              Person B feels a pain in his chest and goes directly to the hospital.

                                                              Who would you bet on to survive?

                                                              • 7 votes
                                                              #11.21 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:02 PM EST
                                                              SANDMAN-2531700

                                                              Answer: The one that prays on his way to the hospital:)

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #11.22 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:31 PM EST
                                                              whino33

                                                              Good answer - but it does prove my point. Clearly, we would all bet on B...

                                                              • 5 votes
                                                              #11.23 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:44 PM EST
                                                              jimmyclinesaucer

                                                              Respectfully disagree, whino33.

                                                              Bad answer. Not much 'faith' if you don't think the prayer will work, and still find yourself needing the hospital Sandman (you know - where all that 'sciencey' stuff happens).

                                                                #11.24 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:40 PM EST
                                                                TruettCollins

                                                                No, when you understand that God gave us Doctors.

                                                                  #11.25 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:27 PM EST
                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  Funny guy - guess by that logic he's also responsible for such niceties as syphilis, anal warts, polio, cancer, Rick Santorum...

                                                                  What a sense of humor your sky-fairy has! In't he cute!!!

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  #11.26 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:38 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  The story of redemption is a good thing. But irrefutable proof? Your logic is refutable.

                                                                  It's not simply the relinquishing of the more unsavory aspects of my life but a complete transformation in my thinking process. I've come under new convictions that were once completely foreign to me. Suddenly things like honesty and integrity matter to me. Now remember, we're talking about someone who had absolutely no regard for other people's personal property. I took what I wanted; no questions asked. I also know just how corrupted I still can be and yet there is some thing (or better yet Someone), beyond myself that keeps me from naturally gravitating towards that corruption.

                                                                  Finding "God" has been your way to seek redemption. However, I accept no excuses for your gang banging past. Do you know how many of your victims continue to suffer from your prior life of poor choices? I have not read a single mention or apology to them? A complete transformation would be complete restitution (by your labor) to all your victims for the "personal property" you had taken or damaged. Is that possible? When you do this, I might consider your irrefutable proof.

                                                                  What efforts have you made towards restitution? You may have nice thoughts. Time to put them into action, not just for yourself and children, but for those you've admittedly harmed.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #11.27 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:43 PM EST
                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  JM California

                                                                  Your challenge is a fair one. Jesus Himself stated that we would be known by the fruit that we produce. Although I may never be able to make complete restitution to every single victim, I can try to make a positive contribution to the society that I once harmed. Without trying to sound sanctimonious, since my conversion I have dedicated my life to taking this message of redemption to the streets, ghettos, projects, prisons, and every place where there are people in desperate need of transformation. For every individual that has heard the message and responded by turning their life around through the power of God, there is one less criminal on the street who poses a danger to our society.

                                                                  whino33

                                                                  This is one of the reasons I can't live my life as an atheist, it's a very limited and stymied perspective on life. You see, I exercise all the same faculties of logic and reason that you have, except I have the added benefit of availing myself of Divine intervention. I know this is completely incomprehensible to you and it's why you have to resort to ridicule. However, your incredulity does not make the power of prayer any less real. As mentioned in my article I have had very specific and to the point answers to prayer in my own life which go beyond the pale of wishful thinking. One particular incident was in response to a work related shoulder injury that I was told would require surgery. About this time we had a visiting pastor who made the call for prayer. I figured, "What the heck" and went up for prayer. It's been about seven years and haven't had problems since. Well, what do you know, that wishful thinking stuff really works after all. Another incident happened years before I became a Christian. I prayed one of those "God if you're real" type of prayers and I received an answer that to this day I consider indubitable. Although I didn't surrender my life to Christ right away, it has always served as a reference point in my life that directsme to the reality of God's existence. My persistence in my rejection of God reveals something about our rebellious nature. That is that even with proof many of us will continue in our obstinate path. This is why Jesus said, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  I've hesitated to address your comments up to this point because I'm yet to see any substantive rebuttal on your behalf. However I decided to respond in order to lay a couple atheist's myth to rest. First of all, Christians are not opposed science. History is replete with the record of Christian scientists who made great contributions in the field of science. Truth is the majority of doctors are theist. Here's another fact that stumps your baseless assumptions; my pastor was a science teacher before he joined the ministry.

                                                                  The other myth is equating the God that we believe in with some "sky fairy". Just to give you some perspective on how idiotic this argument sounds like, think of the most stupid thing any Christian could ever say to you. That's exactly how you look when you make these statements, a person hardly worth arguing with. Please do your cause a favor and drop this tired old argument. That is unless you like being shunned from the world of adult conversion.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #11.28 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:41 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  You certainly can and should take your message of redemption to the streets.

                                                                  Please also include in that message that there can be no true redemption without asking your victims for forgiveness and offering them restitution. That's divine and a complete turn around...the rest is just words.

                                                                  I pay for my actions and have never stopped. You sound like you have a very big bill to take care of. Finding Jesus is no excuse for not repaying your debts. Good luck!

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #11.29 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:25 PM EST
                                                                  whino33

                                                                  I prayed one of those "God if you're real" type of prayers and I received an answer that to this day I consider indubitable.

                                                                  I'd bet anything that you have prayed those types of prayers plenty of other times without receiving an answer.

                                                                  Every month, after I pay my rent, I wish I would run into some extra money. One time, right after thinking that, I found a $50 bill on the sidewalk. That was cool, however I do not credit the "power of wishing".

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #11.30 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:38 PM EST
                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  whino

                                                                  Actually that was the only time I have ever asked God to prove His existence to me. The response that I received was too specific to be considered a mere coincidence. Now I will admit that God hasn't answered every single prayer, He does so according to the council of His own will. However it does happen often enough for me to trust in Him. For me prayer is like driving your car instead of pushing it uphill. But hey, if you don't believe in prayer that's your prerogative. Push on my friend.

                                                                  JM California

                                                                  Truth is that we all have a very big bill to pay (I'm just a worst case scenario). That's why Jesus paid the bill in full.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #11.31 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:35 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  JM California

                                                                  Truth is that we all have a very big bill to pay (I'm just a worst case scenario). That's why Jesus paid the bill in full.

                                                                  Absolute nonsense. You have no right to speak on my behalf. I take full responsibility for my actions and always have. I have no bills to pay, metaphorically, as you assume. I could just have easily chosen a path of destruction, as you had. My life wasn't easy, either. You made horrible choices. Simply saying, "Look world, I'm reborn", is a crock of ....

                                                                  I have not read anywhere where you say, "I'm truly sorry to my victims", nor have you mentioned one cent of restitution.

                                                                  Forget redemption..that doesn't exist until you truly repay those whom you have hurt. No more excuses and no more preaching until you have paid your debt on earth.

                                                                  Now that's a real challenge. Think of your victims. Most would care less about your religious experiment...they want restitution.

                                                                  That's what I call virtue.

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  #11.32 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:30 PM EST
                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  First of all, Christians are not opposed science. History is replete with the record of Christian scientists who made great contributions in the field of science. Truth is the majority of doctors are theist. Here's another fact that stumps your baseless assumptions; my pastor was a science teacher before he joined the ministry.

                                                                  So what? By your logic, Christianity is validated because some people who believe in it also believe in the scientific method? And no where did I say Christians were opposed to science. Perhaps you should have hesitated in replying just a little longer, since you obviously missed the point of my comment.

                                                                  The other myth is equating the God that we believe in with some "sky fairy". Just to give you some perspective on how idiotic this argument sounds like, think of the most stupid thing any Christian could ever say to you. That's exactly how you look when you make these statements, a person hardly worth arguing with. Please do your cause a favor and drop this tired old argument. That is unless you like being shunned from the world of adult conversion.

                                                                  Sorry. Your 'imaginary friend'. Better?

                                                                  Your article is so self-aggrandizing and solipsistic that I hesitated to address it with anything other than a one-liner up to this point, but since you were courteous enough to avail me with your wisdom...

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #11.33 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:58 PM EST
                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  JM California

                                                                  You exemplify what I believe is at the crux of the matter on this issue of God's existence. That is that no one likes to be confronted with the issue of sin. From a biblical standpoint, which is the truth that I allured to, all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. In plain English it means that we have missed the mark of perfection. Now unless you've attained to perfection, never having sinned in action or thought, then this includes you. Of course this only applies if there exists a moral authority higher than ourselves. Otherwise we're left to playing God and setting up our own moral standards which it seems you are doing here. However, why should I abide by your standards? I seriously doubt that you abide by them 100% of the time. This is why He is God and you're not. He is the only One qualified to set the standards that supersede our own. Now here in lays the wisdom of God in that He is able to fulfill both His justice and His love for mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. (2Corinthians 5:21) "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." This is why God towers high above our man made standards of morality. He alone displays grace and mercy. Mercy: He doesn't give us what we do deserve. Grace: He gives us what we don't deserve.

                                                                  And further more...what the heck? Who's this pulling on my coat tails? Oh hey there little buddy. Can I help you with something? Like I said Jimmy, adolescence will get you shunned.

                                                                  Anyways, where were we? Ah yes, the grace of God. As you can see I don't have much of it myself. As to your insistence on some formal apology, just because I haven't posted it here doesn't mean I haven't done so at some point. In fact, repentance is the first step towards salvation. And if it's dollars and cents you're looking for, consider the money that society has saved for every individual who has been diverted from a life of crime and thus ceasing to be a burden on the tax payer and then the life that he has diverted and so on and so forth.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #11.34 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  In the New Testament, we have the wonderful example of Zacchaeus in Luke 19. Jesus is visiting Zacchaeus's home, and the people who know the chief publican to be a wicked and oppressive man are beginning to murmur about His associating with a sinner (verse 7). "But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.' Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost'" (verses 8-10). From Zacchaeus's words, we gather that 1) he had been guilty of defrauding people, 2) he was remorseful over his past actions, and 3) he was committed to making restitution. From Jesus' words, we understand that 1) Zacchaeus was saved that day and his sin was forgiven, and 2) the evidence of his salvation was both his public confession (see Romans 10:10) and his relinquishing of all ill-gotten gains. Zacchaeus repented, and his sincerity was evident in his immediate desire to make restitution. Here was a man who was penitent and contrite, and the proof of his conversion to Christ was his resolve to atone, as much as possible, for past sins.

                                                                  The same holds true for anyone who truly knows Christ today. Genuine repentance leads to a desire to redress wrongs. When someone becomes a Christian, he will have a desire born of deep conviction to do good, and that includes making restoration whenever possible. The idea of "whenever possible" is crucially important to remember. There are some crimes and sins for which there is no adequate restitution. In such instances, a Christian should make some form of restitution that demonstrates repentance, but at the same time, does not need to feel guilty about the inability to make full restitution. Restitution is to be a result of our salvation—it is not a requirement for salvation. If you have received forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ, all of your sins are forgiven, whether or not you have been able to make restitution for them.

                                                                  http://www.gotquestions.org/restitution-Bible.html

                                                                  You don't have to debate my words, Sandman. The preceding was from the New Testament and was kindly linked by trm2008. Unless you are a quadriplegic, Sandman, you are fit to make restitution (and preach). Please, no more excuses.

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  #11.35 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:54 PM EST
                                                                  whino33

                                                                  Now I will admit that God hasn't answered every single prayer, He does so according to the council of His own will. However it does happen often enough for me to trust in Him.

                                                                  If it's God's will and he has a divine plan, what is the point of praying? Furthermore, if God already has a plan, don't you think it's actually arrogant of you to pray for something to be added to his plan or modified from it? You think that God should change his plan just for you?

                                                                  I think George Carlin said it best:

                                                                  I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

                                                                  • 9 votes
                                                                  #11.36 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:07 PM EST
                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  George Carlin, seriously? This is your wellspring of wisdom?

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #11.37 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:28 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  I've met George Carlin. He was a very wise man that expressed himself with satire and humor. He actually was a wellspring of wisdom, unlike many other comedians.

                                                                  Don't write him off so easily.

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #11.38 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:42 PM EST
                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  And further more...what the heck? Who's this pulling on my coat tails? Oh hey there little buddy. Can I help you with something? Like I said Jimmy, adolescence will get you shunned.

                                                                  Not pulling on your coattails Sandman. Just hoping you might see through the foolish wish-thinking that defines your current situation. I think you'd find more strength in your own character if you'd develop it, rather than depending on a fable for day-to-day strength.

                                                                  And agreed JM, Carlin was great. He was certainly more of a 'wellspring of wisdom' than a bronze-age, guilt-ridden fairytale.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #11.39 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:56 PM EST
                                                                  JM California

                                                                  Welcome to Newsvine, jimmyclinesaucer.

                                                                  F/R sent!

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #11.40 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:03 PM EST
                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  Cheers JM...appreciated!

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #11.41 - Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:08 PM EST
                                                                  whino33

                                                                  Sandman - I'd be much more interested in your response to the first part of my comment:

                                                                  ...Since God already has a divine plan, don't you think it's actually arrogant of you to pray for something to be added to his plan or modified from it? You think that God should change his plan just for you?

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #11.42 - Thu Mar 1, 2012 4:24 PM EST
                                                                  katrix

                                                                  There is no such thing as sin. Sin is invented by religious people, to control others. There's good and bad, obviously, and right and wrong. If I steal from you, that's wrong of me. There's no god and no sin, which puts much more of a burden on me. I have to do right by all my fellow men - not just by some dude in the clouds. I have to justify my actions by billions of humans instead of by what a mass murderer thinks. I won't get rewarded if I'm good, or punished if I'm bad - I need to be good just because it's common decency, and part of the Golden Rule which predates Christianity. And if you don't follow my beliefs? You're just as worthy as I am.

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #11.43 - Fri Mar 2, 2012 12:49 AM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  smithichie

                                                                  Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence

                                                                  You give yourself away in your own headline because if actually had irrefutable evidence for your god you wouldn't need to BELIEVE.

                                                                  For example, I don't believe in elephants. I don't have to believe in elephants because there truly is irrefutable evidence for the existence of elephants and all I have to do is experience some of that evidence. Furthermore this evidence is so strong and so universal that my description of an elephant will be nearly identical with anyone else's description no matter if they lived hundreds or thousands of years ago or if they live on the other side of the world. If I say elephants have six legs I can easily be shown to be wrong. Gods on the other hand have almost as many definitions as there are people imagining such creatures. If I say Mr. God has six legs there is no way to show if I am wrong or am in fact correct.

                                                                  • 12 votes
                                                                  Reply#12 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:13 PM EST
                                                                  trm2008

                                                                  If I say Mr. God has six legs

                                                                  Everyone know that god has two legs--after all, he was created in man's image. :-)

                                                                  • 15 votes
                                                                  #12.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:16 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  UNA_Lion

                                                                  Great story - very inspiring. It's good to see our sovereign Lord at work in the lives of folks.

                                                                  As to scientific evidence, the multiple naysayers are correct. The spiritual is not detectable through physical means, except by witnessing transformed lives. We who have accepted Christ Jesus as our Lord know what we are, just as we know our brothers and sisters. But those outside the faith are incapable of such knowledge, for as Jesus said:

                                                                  John 3

                                                                  18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.

                                                                  And as Paul elaborated:

                                                                  Romans 1

                                                                  21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

                                                                  24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

                                                                  Most will choose to serve the flesh, and that is an awful form of slavery in which to live. We know we are now free.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  Reply#13 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:38 PM EST
                                                                  ngp256

                                                                  rotflmfao, funnyI see it the other way around. I was a slave to fiction, and other people's control based on no substance, to freeing myself, and actually living free.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #13.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:14 AM EST
                                                                  UNA_Lion

                                                                  rotflmfao, funnyI see it the other way around.

                                                                  As Jesus predicted you would, and most will:

                                                                  Matthew 7

                                                                  13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

                                                                  Ones own arrogance and pride is an extremely difficult thing to overcome, and many must first come to the end of themselves before they can hear the gentle calling of the Lord, as the following parable illustrates:

                                                                  Luke 15

                                                                  11 To illustrate the point further, Jesus told them this story: “A man had two sons. 12 The younger son told his father, ‘I want my share of your estate now before you die.’ So his father agreed to divide his wealth between his sons.

                                                                  13 “A few days later this younger son packed all his belongings and moved to a distant land, and there he wasted all his money in wild living. 14 About the time his money ran out, a great famine swept over the land, and he began to starve. 15 He persuaded a local farmer to hire him, and the man sent him into his fields to feed the pigs. 16 The young man became so hungry that even the pods he was feeding the pigs looked good to him. But no one gave him anything.

                                                                  17 “When he finally came to his senses, he said to himself, ‘At home even the hired servants have food enough to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! 18 I will go home to my father and say, “Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, 19 and I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”’

                                                                  20 “So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him. 21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’

                                                                  22 “But his father said to the servants, ‘Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. 23 And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, 24 for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.’ So the party began.

                                                                  25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the fields working. When he returned home, he heard music and dancing in the house, 26 and he asked one of the servants what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother is back,’ he was told, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf. We are celebrating because of his safe return.’

                                                                  28 “The older brother was angry and wouldn’t go in. His father came out and begged him, 29 but he replied, ‘All these years I’ve slaved for you and never once refused to do a single thing you told me to. And in all that time you never gave me even one young goat for a feast with my friends. 30 Yet when this son of yours comes back after squandering your money on prostitutes, you celebrate by killing the fattened calf!’

                                                                  31 “His father said to him, ‘Look, dear son, you have always stayed by me, and everything I have is yours. 32 We had to celebrate this happy day. For your brother was dead and has come back to life! He was lost, but now he is found!’”

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #13.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 AM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Hiram-1381633

                                                                  A wonderful and inspiring account, it reminds me of the lead Pastor of our Spanish congregation. The difference I see hear is that the majority of responders here are Greeks. That is they have knowledge of God, and understand the concept but do notknow God. To know God is a personal experience that each of us has to come to. The same difference between knowledge and wisdom, wisdom is always based on experience, but relys on knowledge. Keep up the good work and tell your son congratualtions.

                                                                  H

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  Reply#14 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:48 PM EST
                                                                  Elaine-1503791

                                                                  What a beautiful and inspiring story Sandman. Thank you for sharing it.

                                                                  Hebrews 10:19-23
                                                                  And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven’s Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus. By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place. And since we have a great High Priest who rules over God’s house, let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him. For our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise.

                                                                  Amen!

                                                                  A friend request sent from a fellow Christian.

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  Reply#15 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:56 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  I'll say that this was an interesting, well written article. However, you fail to provide the proof. You have offered some very good reasons about how and why mythological beliefs continue to survive in the modern era as well as how personal proof doesn't equal substantial proof unless circular, fallacious reasoning is applied to make it seem so in the believers eyes.

                                                                  Still gets my vote though. I enjoyed the read. Thanks for writing it.

                                                                  • 11 votes
                                                                  Reply#16 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:58 PM EST
                                                                  katrix

                                                                  Yep, definitely worth voting up, despite the false headline.

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  #16.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:21 AM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  wolfbilly

                                                                  Thank you for being bold enough to reveal your testimony to someone who needed to hear it. Pay no attention to the naysayers for this is not their moment, although you have planted seeds within them. I appreciate your attitude of love and not disrespect for all those who commented. The Lord provides a way for all to enter. But the door must be opened by the seeker of truth. It is and can never be forced upon anyone to accept Christ's gift. So, to believe or not to believe is a personal choice. But know that God loves you and desires the best for you, no matter what!

                                                                  1 Corinthians 2:14

                                                                  Amplified Bible (AMP)

                                                                  14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

                                                                  If you want to learn more. Find a Bible and read the rest of the story. God Bless

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #17 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:50 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  Pay no attention to the naysayers for this is not their moment, although you have planted seeds within them.

                                                                  Code for: Ignore all contrary opinions, logic and rational thinking that would get you to question your faith in an ancient mythology.

                                                                  The only seed that plants is it shows how weak your argument really is.

                                                                  • 15 votes
                                                                  #17.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:09 PM EST
                                                                  wolfbilly

                                                                  Please don't condemn the message or the messenger. If it wasn't meant for you and you don't accept it, that is your choice, and your choice will not be condemned. But I believe this was written for a purpose and someone will benefit from it. Thank you, and God's Blessings!

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #17.2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:19 PM EST
                                                                  Truth Sleuth

                                                                  Exactly. We don't have to ridicule others' positions, but we can challenge them and question them and ask for verification. And if they are so insecure that they can't withstand a challenge, a question or a request for verification, then why bother to post this article in the first place. The author claimed irrefutable evidence. Those of us who showed up were willing to read the evidence, albeit, I admit, with skepticism. But skepticism is not condemnation. Those of us who have noted that no evidence or proof was provided are not saying anything whatsoever about his character, integrity or honor as a human being. Only that his logic in proving his claim is absent.

                                                                  • 8 votes
                                                                  #17.3 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:21 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  Please don't condemn the message or the messenger. If it wasn't meant for you and you don't accept it, that is your choice, and your choice will not be condemned.

                                                                  I don't condemn it. I thought it was a good piece, although it doesn't fullfill what the title promised. I was more pointing out how what you said makes your position and that of the authors as being weak, which hardly works in your favor unless you're trying to show weakness and want to convert people to non-belief.

                                                                  This is a public forum where questions and comments are encouraged. That’s not condemnation. If the author didn’t want or expect such questions, he could easily write the piece for his own satisfaction and leave it on his hard drive or post it to his personal blog where he could censor the comments. By posting on a public forum (and by extension you posting a comment on the same forum) you’re granting permission for people to agree or disagree with your position.

                                                                  And that's what I did. :)

                                                                  • 9 votes
                                                                  #17.4 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:27 PM EST
                                                                  Hiram-1381633

                                                                  Only that his logic in proving his claim is absent.

                                                                  I disagree as the article does prove the proof that the author needed to accept God exist. The title is "Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence" It says nothing on why you should believe. There is more to evidence that that which is empirical, personal experience cannot be put aside and claimed to be illogical based on the fact it is personal. Much of the evidence on how we live our lives and how we interpret things around us is based on experience. An orphan can know what a father is based on study, yet the child who has a loving father knows this in a different and more personal way. The same can be said for a child who has had an abusive or absent father.They all will independently come up with different definition of father based on experience. I submit you cannot truly know God until you experience Him a a real and personal way. Which is what the author has done.

                                                                  H

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #17.5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:33 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  I disagree as the article does prove the proof that the author needed to accept God exist. The title is "Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence" It says nothing on why you should believe.

                                                                  Respectfully, I must disagree. If he had left the title as "Why I Believe in a Creator", then we'd be agreeing right now. However, there is nothing 'irrefutable' about the 'evidence' he has provided.

                                                                  • 12 votes
                                                                  #17.6 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:48 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  The title is "Why I Believe in The Creator; Irrefutable Evidence for God's Existence" It says nothing on why you should believe.

                                                                  ... that's covered rather clearly in the first paragraph. "I state my case ... which I believe to be incontrovertible." and "what evidence could I possibly produce that will placate the minds of unbelievers and cause them to abandon their skepticism once and for all."

                                                                  • 8 votes
                                                                  #17.7 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:05 PM EST
                                                                  wolfbilly

                                                                  When Columbus said the Earth is not flat, some thought he had lost his reasoning.
                                                                  When Einstein defined the Theory of Relativity, some thought it couldn't be possible. And whoever even considered measuring the "Speed of Light"? And if someone said that God created the Universe and all that is within it, or that God knew you before you were born, or that God has created you for a purpose. Many will laugh and scorn because, just as with Columbus and Einstein, these things could not be proven or explained by facts known to humankind at the time.
                                                                  Yet I believe that there is a place within our innermost being that questions why we are here, what is life itself, and does our existence exceed human understanding? But we have no answers to these thoughts at this time. We can determine the elements within our bodies necessary to support life. We can even make necessary changes to prolong life, but we cannot identify life itself. We cannot remove life from ones body and examine it. We cannot perform a life transplant, and do not know how to maintain life indefinately. Yet we know that life exists. In some similiar way believers have trusted that the existence of life is a creation of a power beyond our present understanding. The Bible says "we see thru a glass dimly". Sandman has stated that he has accepted what is the "Irrefutable evidence for God's Existence", and that it is his belief. He has shared this with someone, who like him, needs to turn away from the god of this world, whose wish it is to destroy Gods creation, and to begin living the purpose God intended for that person. Whoever that person is will be blessed, just as the Sandman has been blessed.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.8 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:31 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  When Columbus said the Earth is not flat, some thought he had lost his reasoning.
                                                                  When Einstein defined the Theory of Relativity, some thought it couldn't be possible. And whoever even considered measuring the "Speed of Light"? And if someone said that God created the Universe and all that is within it, or that God knew you before you were born, or that God has created you for a purpose. Many will laugh and scorn because, just as with Columbus and Einstein, these things could not be proven or explained by facts known to humankind at the time.

                                                                  You give the perfect reason why your mythologies shouldn't be taken as fact. Einstein and Columbus were asked to provide proof, which they did. Your mythology has had thousands of years to do so and hasn't managed one scrap of falsifiable proof.

                                                                  And even if you could provide proof of God, your belief in YOUR God would still be in question since there are thousands of Gods and they all have the same amount of proof behind them as your God. When a civilization dies, their Gods die along with them. That's why you don't believe in Zeus or Hercules. In the civilizations where they were thought of to be Gods, people made up the same 'proofs' this article and your comment bring up.

                                                                  No, there is no proof of your God and no reason (unless you want to believe because of societal indoctrination or personal proof like the author) that your God is any more credible than other Gods. Until believers can provide proof, their claims can be given the same credence as Einstein’s before he provided proof. It just didn't take him 2000 years to do so because what he said was actually true.

                                                                  • 10 votes
                                                                  #17.9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 PM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  But we have no answers to these thoughts at this time.

                                                                  BTW: Not knowing something doesn't mean that God did it. It means we don't know. It's not proof. That's a God of the Gaps argument at its finest. As science and knowledge expand, your God finds less and less gaps to live in.

                                                                  • 8 votes
                                                                  #17.10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:49 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  When Columbus said the Earth is not flat, some thought he had lost his reasoning.

                                                                  One quick correction - people knew the earth was spherical hundreds of years before Christ was supposed to have been born.

                                                                  • 7 votes
                                                                  #17.11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:08 PM EST
                                                                  SANDMAN-2531700

                                                                  First of all, I would like to thank all of you for taking the time to read my article. This is why it was posted on a public forum and opened up for discussion. I don't mind hearing from opposing view points that challenge my logic as long as it is done respectfully. Even when some bonehead gets out of line it doesn't bother me too much. I've been shot and stabbed before; it takes more than the babbling of some fool to penetrate this thick skin. Here is some clarification on what I've written and the motives behind it. I will admit that this was not exactly a scientific disquisition as some would have liked it to be. In fact it was less scientific than my previous articles. However, for those who are fixed on hearing a convincing scientific argument, please enlighten me and give us the criteria that would meet your standards. Would a post card of me and God chilling at His beach front palace in heaven do? I know I'm being facetious here but this is about the gist of it. The tangible evidence that we provide in regards to a universe that demonstrates harmony and purpose, the skeptics attribute to some mindless process of natural selection and random chance. Rather than getting locked into this endless battle of tug-of-war I chose to take a different approach and present the tangible evidence of a changed life. This change is the objective truth that is undeniable. I went from there to the subjective truth of a transformation that I attribute to the power of The Creator in my life. Furthermore I spoke of the on going experience of Divine intervention in my own life. Now, if this truth simply remains with me then we can confine it to a subjective experience and move on. However, my claim is that the potentiality of this experience becoming the observer's truth makes it irrefutable because at that point the refuter would cease to refute.

                                                                  Now the question which I did not ilucidate upon is how one arrives at this conclusion. Unfortunately, for those who are expecting the post card, God has only left us one avenue. You know where I'm going with this right? It's the avenue of faith. Fortunately for you, the skeptic, it does not require an overwhelming amount of faith. Just enough to invite the presence of God to make Himself real in your life. Now I understand this may not be the "empirical evidence" you're looking for but it's the only way. The reason is that it is the only option that engages your will. Think about it, if God would show up at your front door tomorrow morning, would you willfully believe in Him or would you have no other choice? Faith in the unseen God is a choice. This is why Jesus told Thomas who is known as the doubting disciple for requiring visible proof of the risen Christ, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29) The good news is that this faith is not blind as some make it seem. There is tangible evidence for the believer that confirms this truth as irrefutable. Still, it requires the first step of faith that sets us on that journey.

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #17.12 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:29 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  This is why Jesus told Thomas who is known as the doubting disciple for requiring visible proof of the risen Christ, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

                                                                  ... so Thomas and the other apostles were not blessed, because they had a direct relationship to support Jesus as the son of God? All those in the Bible who had direct interaction with God or Jesus were not blessed because they didn't have faith, just knowledge?

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:19 PM EST
                                                                  TruettCollins

                                                                  No they were blessed to have known and seen the Savior directly...but those who accept him through the Spirit without the physical vision of him are more blessed.

                                                                  A direct translation straight from the Greek to English would acually read:

                                                                  Is-saying to-him the JESUS that YOU-HAVE-SEEN ME THOMAS! YOU-HAVE-BELIEVED HAPPY THE-ones NO PERCEIVING AND BELIEVing.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:59 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  No they were blessed to have known and seen the Savior directly...

                                                                  Isn't it kind for Jesus to have satisfied one or a handful of skeptics, when God is going to condemn every other skeptic in existence.

                                                                  but those who accept him through the Spirit without the physical vision of him are more blessed.

                                                                  Isn't it convenient of God to make that declaration right as his historical public displays ended.

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #17.15 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:59 PM EST
                                                                  TruettCollins

                                                                  As he leaves this earth to return to Glory.....and leave the message for us of hope.....I say it is GREAT.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.16 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:06 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  As he leaves this earth to return to Glory....and leave the message for us of hope..

                                                                  The message is - "You won't get a chance like these guys get - either believe, or burn." So much hope.

                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                  #17.17 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:17 PM EST
                                                                  jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                  I say cheese is GREAT. I grate it onto my salads, pizza, I'll even add it to mac'n cheese, which obviously already has cheese, but that's just how crazy I am for cheese.

                                                                  Sorry for derailing the conversation, what were we talking about again?

                                                                  Oh yeah, cheese...mmm.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.18 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:19 PM EST
                                                                  TruettCollins

                                                                  The message is ACCEPT or REJECT a gift that is offered to all......

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #17.19 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:25 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  The message is ACCEPT or REJECT a gift that is offered to all......

                                                                  Thomas wasn't offered that gift - he was offered physical proof.

                                                                  Also, not all people who've lived after that message was released were given that message. And yet... they're burning in hell as well.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #17.20 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:31 PM EST
                                                                  katrix

                                                                  And if I had been brought up in a Jewish family, or some other fatih - which two thirds of all humans are - I should just discount my brainwashing, and discover Jesus? Or else burn? What about the Christians who can't even agree about who's a true Christian?

                                                                  I lost my faith in Christianity because it was too exclusive. If you're a good person, you're every bit as worthy as I am of whatever eternal rewards there may or may not be. I won't ever be so arrogant to think I'm more special than you are. Each and every one of you is just as worthy as I am. And none of us have to atone for some crime we never even comitted in the first place, or to suck up to some massive ego.

                                                                  Here's to all of you, and if there is something after death, we're all equally deserving, except for those who are criminals. If not, we won't care.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  #17.21 - Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:49 AM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  wolfbilly

                                                                  My reference to Columbus and Einstein were merely simplistic illustrations and are of not importance to the point that Sandman has made. Facts of earthly law can be discussed here or in earthly courts. Divine thoughts cannot be proved or disproved, they are accepted by faith, or rejected. God gave man free will to decide these matters. God chose to create man, not robots. You can exercise your free will and it is only a personal matter. It's up to you and you alone. Sandman expressed what he believed. That's all he did. Don't you feel that he can express his belief? You didn't have to read it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to disprove it.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#18 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:56 PM EST
                                                                  thelopes

                                                                  Don't you feel that he can express his belief? You didn't have to read it. You don't have to accept it.

                                                                  He can express his belief - however, in the first paragraph he made a claim that he had information "that will placate the minds of unbelievers and cause them to abandon their skepticism once and for all."

                                                                  This opens it for discussion and question.

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #18.1 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:09 AM EST
                                                                  Grisham

                                                                  My reference to Columbus and Einstein were merely simplistic illustrations and are of not importance to the point that Sandman has made.

                                                                  No, your point was that Einstein and Columbus said something that others thought was stupid at the time. They asked for proof and their claims weren't accepted before proof was furnished. This is the way it works for most things besides religion. It's why religion is based on faith and not on facts.

                                                                  It was an attempt to convince me that sometimes we just don't know things and some claims that were thought of to be nonsense turned out to be true.

                                                                  Problem is, they needed to provide proof of their claims, thus debunking your entire line of reasoning.

                                                                  Divine thoughts cannot be proved or disproved, they are accepted by faith, or rejected. God gave man free will to decide these matters. God chose to create man, not robots.

                                                                  Your dogma can be disproven even if a divine being of some sort can't. That's the danger that comes with believeing you know what your God wants and having a book that outlines his properties.

                                                                  Sandman expressed what he believed. That's all he did. Don't you feel that he can express his belief? You didn't have to read it. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to disprove it.

                                                                  Of course he can express his belief. Just like I can express my disbelief. I did want to read it or I wouldn't have clicked the link. Your right that I don't have to accept it but if I want to disprove it, that's what an open forum is for. It's too exchange ideas and he clearly doesn't provide any proof.

                                                                  • 9 votes
                                                                  #18.2 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:29 AM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Christian Dumazz

                                                                  Grisham et. al. expressed what they understand based on evidence. That's all they did. Don't you feel that they can express what the evidence suggests? You didn't have to read it. You don't have to accept it. And you sure as hell can't disprove it.



                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  Reply#19 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:09 AM EST
                                                                  wolfbilly

                                                                  You have the free will to believe or disbelieve as you chose. As does everyone else. This is not my seed, but I would support anyone's right to religious liberty, and the right to free speech. And that will include your own. It is late and I must now retire. Perhaps Sandman will be back tomorrow.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#20 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:20 AM EST
                                                                  Christian Dumazz

                                                                  OMG...wolfbilly...where has anyone threatened religious liberty or the right to free speech here?

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  Reply#21 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:26 AM EST
                                                                  vol fan in chatt, tn

                                                                  Nice seed, friend request sent...

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  Reply#22 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:04 AM EST
                                                                  BURGUNDY1222

                                                                  I also believe in God,But he believes your job is to be kind & help people! Not spew hatred.Just that simple.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  Reply#23 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:04 AM EST
                                                                  Norman 2

                                                                  No offense intended, however, a discussion on this subject would not be complete without the PSYCHIATRISTS checking in.

                                                                  "The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude toward humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life."

                                                                  Dr. Sigmund Freud

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  Reply#24 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:47 AM EST
                                                                  DRHunk

                                                                  I made a similar change yet cannot attribute it to some god, i attribute it to my own survival instinct kicking in and realizing I could no longer live the same way and survive.

                                                                  I was 24 before having my life changing AH-HA moment, but it happened in the drive thru of a Taco Bell, I realized I did not want to be the 35 year old man handing me my food when I was his age.

                                                                  I agree Sandman moved from one crutch to another. I myself have no crutch but use my own strength to keep moving forward. Some people can do it on their own, others need help.

                                                                  Since taking control of my own life I have graduated college (had a 1.8 GPA in High School), Am married 10 years now with 3 children, Own 2 businesses, own my own home, and make more than double the income than the average person. God did not do this, "I" did this.

                                                                  You trip along the way, finding yourself drifting slowly back to those things you are familiar with, drugs, gangs, alcohol, violence. But if you recognize it, you can correct it before you fall.

                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                  #25 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:52 AM EST
                                                                  whino33

                                                                  I have some bad news for you...

                                                                  It was God. Even if you don't realize it, that doesn't change the fact that it was Him.

                                                                  I know for a fact that God frequently hangs out at Taco Bell. Can't get enough of the hot sauce.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #25.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:45 PM EST
                                                                  TiG.

                                                                  whino

                                                                  I can make a logical argument refuting Sandman's claim without breaking a sweat. So I suspect you could too. Is 'Taco Bell' ridicule your best contribution?

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #25.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:04 PM EST
                                                                  whino33

                                                                  Of course not - I was just referring to DRHunk's comment.

                                                                  Although the truth is that most religious people would read DRHunk's comment and honestly believe that he's wrong and that it was God.

                                                                  After all, you can't prove that it wasn't......

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  #25.3 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:23 PM EST
                                                                  DRHunk

                                                                  I would have to ask those people, why would god want to help me? I never prayed for his assistance nor even believe in his existence as taught in the bible. Should he not have been helping one of his followers instead?

                                                                    #25.4 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:48 PM EST
                                                                    whino33

                                                                    Don't you know God works in mysterious ways :P

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #25.5 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:05 PM EST
                                                                    jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                    I dunno TiG, I thought the Taco Bell quip was funny. What's crawled up your arse?

                                                                    Someone seeds an article positing absolute proof of God's existence, and you take issue with some mild ridicule directed the authors way?

                                                                    Please...there's no bag-limit on stupid.

                                                                      #25.6 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:50 PM EST
                                                                      TiG.

                                                                      jimmy

                                                                      My advice to those new to the vine is to post to others as if you were speaking to a person right in front of you making eye contact.

                                                                      Ridiculing one's beliefs is ipso facto ridiculing the person. Generally that does not have a productive end.

                                                                      Per the content of your post - what was there - I also disagree with the author. If you would like to see how one could approach thoughtful disagreement I offer you my post @#1.10 and those that followed.

                                                                      Maybe you will be able to avoid SRO's monthly list.

                                                                        #25.7 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:11 PM EST
                                                                        jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                        TiG,

                                                                        My advice to those new to the idea that others have some grounding in reality is to ignore their comments if it so offends their belief in a magic sky-daddy. You felt it necessary to police whino's comment, much like you felt it necessary to police mine:

                                                                        whino

                                                                        I can make a logical argument refuting Sandman's claim without breaking a sweat. So I suspect you could too. Is 'Taco Bell' ridicule your best contribution?

                                                                        Sensing some ridicule there. If you don't like it, move on. No one asked you.

                                                                        Have a nice night.

                                                                          #25.8 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:38 PM EST
                                                                          TiG.

                                                                          jimmy

                                                                          Do you have anything thoughtful to say regarding this topic or are you going to stick with flippant remarks? Given you obviously have no clue what my position is (yet it should be quite clear to anyone who takes a moment to read) I suspect asking you to formulate a logical, on-topic argument is pointless. But here goes ...

                                                                          Instead of ridiculing (a skill mastered in elementary school) Sandman, et. al. attempt to engage him as an objective adult.

                                                                            #25.9 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:06 PM EST
                                                                            jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                            TiG, all due respect, but if you don't appreciate my remarks, ignore me or report me if you see fit. But PLEASE, do not attempt to tell me how to tailor my remarks to others.

                                                                            Not your place friend.

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #25.10 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:45 PM EST
                                                                            TiG.

                                                                            jimmy

                                                                            You engaged me. If you direct a post at me I will respond.

                                                                              #25.11 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:14 PM EST
                                                                              jimmyclinesaucer

                                                                              TiG,

                                                                              I asked you what crawled up your arse, not 'what is the appropriate way to respond to this article?'

                                                                              Look, you're obviously a sharp knife, and I have no interest in going around in circles with someone likely to embarrass me shortly, but my beef was with the 'advice' you gave, if you will.

                                                                              Peace, friend. No hard feelings, I hope.

                                                                                #25.12 - Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:28 PM EST
                                                                                TiG.

                                                                                jimmy

                                                                                I have a long-established issue with viners ridiculing each other. Newsvine is going down the toilet - a number of very solid, thoughtful people have left in disgust. Other great contributors have been banned because they could not control their tempers given the near constant bombardment of trolls in various forms.

                                                                                One of the key problems, IMHO, is that there are too many viners who are out to entertain themselves at the expense of others.

                                                                                Yes I can report this but I rarely do. Many times the offending viner cleverly avoids violating the CoH. Reporting is hit or miss. Our two moderators have no chance in hell of addressing this problem properly so it is up to the community to encourage others to be decent. I am one of the community and I try to do my part as I see fit.

                                                                                No hard feelings works for me.

                                                                                  #25.13 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:48 AM EST
                                                                                  whino33

                                                                                  TIG - I've been on here for a while and have contributed plenty of intelligent comments to numerous topics. I felt like making a joke and there is actually a point to be made in the joke, which would be the impossibility of proving a negative. Perhaps, you couldn't read it clearly from up on your high horse?

                                                                                  I see no reason why you felt the need to address my comment. Frankly, your response was unwarranted, unproductive and annoying.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #25.14 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:47 PM EST
                                                                                  TiG.

                                                                                  whino

                                                                                  I felt like making a joke and there is actually a point to be made in the joke, which would be the impossibility of proving a negative.

                                                                                  Your point on not proving a negative was @25.3. I did not respond because I agreed with you on that point. Your joke occurred @25.1 and if you believe this ...

                                                                                  I know for a fact that God frequently hangs out at Taco Bell. Can't get enough of the hot sauce.

                                                                                  ... is not ridiculing Sandman's belief in God in the context of his personal story then we most definitely do not see things the same way. In hindsight, I have seen much worse and probably should have just ignored your post.

                                                                                  Moving back to topic while staying within the context we have established ...

                                                                                  The key problem with Sandman's position, IMO, is that he has claimed, in effect, a proof that God exists. If he is somehow arguing that he has proof in his mind that his private God is real that would be something nobody could dispute. However it appears as though he is claiming proof for God in the absolute. That claim should indeed be refuted.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #25.15 - Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 PM EST
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